| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Eeeeek, no worries mixing syn and conventional oils these days. | ||
| Eeeeek |
Blake: It just seems sick and wrong to me! I don't even mix brands...I don't think I can get past that, it's been engraved so deeply into my brain  Vik | ||
| Blake |
You are one sic dude for sure. But even Cecil would probably mix syn with dyno juice in a pinch.  I'm curiousthough, ever figure out where your lost oil is going? | ||
| Eeeeek |
I never did get a good answer. After the rebuild at 13,500 miles, the problem went away. I'm wathcing very closely as oild consumption seems to be increasing... vik | ||
| Mikej |
Got a flyer in the mail for Valvoline Motorcycle Oil, says it's available "exclusively" at Wal-Mart. 4 Stroke Motorcycle oil 20w50. And I quote: "Helps achieve maximum horsepower". Oooooooookay. Says it meets the following specs: JASO MA and API SF/SG/SJ 4 stroke specs. I don't know if it's any good or not, and don't know how our bikes will take to it, but it might be an option for some. | ||
| Bomber |
All I finally have been able to get some miles on the bike since I installed the oil temp gauge . . . .. creuising steadily at 80/90 mph (on a closed course, naturally), the temperature seems to steady up at about 210 degrees F . . . .. seems a bit high to me . . .. I've always used the neighborhood of 200 as a good upper limit . . . . . the knowledge of the collective would be of value, as I'm new to these engines | ||
| Blake |
From memory... 200F to 210F in the tank is good. Lower than 200F risks not getting the oil heated enough to evaporate water. Over about 230F tank temp risks starting to significantly cook conventional oil. Using a good synthetic significantly enhances the oil cookage safety margin. | ||
| Jasonl |
Quick question fellows. On the dip stick at what position do you consider the oil level "normal"? | ||
| Mikej |
Jason, About the middle or so seems to work for me, right between the upper and lower inscribed lines. | ||
| Bomber |
Blake . . . thanks for the come-back . . . .and, you were right to assume I am measuring in the tank . . . . . I've got about 4k miles on the clock now, and was thinking about synth oil at 5 k . . I've hjad good luck with Mobil 1 in my old thumper in the past, and will likely keep on with that brand ... the engine's feeling well broken in, but the tranny (as my long-time sporty friends told me) is still improving! thanks again | ||
| Coney |
got a question for you folks. has anybody had any overheating problems? my s3t was using a lot of oil after only two months, sometimes a quart in 300 miles. and yes i was extremely gentle during break in. when the dealer looked at it to correct the oil consumption problem (under warranty) i was informed the cylinders are distorted, probably from overheating from sitting in traffic. so how do i prevent that, turn it off and on to roll 7 feet ahead in traffic? anyone know anything about the effectiveness of oil coolers? will synthetic oil help? | ||
| Bigtinva |
A question for those folks using Mobil 1 in your Buells. Are you using the Mobil 1 V-Twin labeled stuff or the plain off the shelf Mobil 1? Any other brands I should consider? TIA, Tim | ||
| Gundog |
Off the shelf Mobil 1 in my Buell for 16k so far. I went to synthetic after the first 1,000 miles. Oil changes every 2k to 3k. Why pay double just because the bottle says V-twin? Dale 99M2 | ||
| Blake |
Coney: No problems here, and I've run in TX all durn summer. I will shut her down for extended stop light intervals and I do run synthetic, and to answer Bigtinva's question... I run the "off the shelf" at Walmart 15W50 Mobil-1. Blake (head swelling bigtime cause Aaron said I was "100% correct" on the dyno chart page) | ||
| Rocketman |
Mobil 1 15w50 4T (motorcycle specific) Liquid gold Rocket in England | ||
| Y2k01x1 |
coney: my 2001 X1 with DDFI would go into its "skip spark" mode when the engine temp sensor reached a certain level. this usually happened while i was sitting at a stop light. the motor would run in the skip spark mode for a few minutes and then return to normal. i only have a little over 500 miles on the bike at this time. just completed break-in. skip spark was annoying but it's better than cooking the motor. does your S3T have the skip spark feature? is your dealer going to correct your cylinder problem under warranty? does anyone know at what temp the DDFI motors go into skip spark mode? the service manual doesn't say. bomber: how bout some info on your oil temp setup? i'm interested in monitoring my own oil temp. i mean my bike's oil temp, i don't use oil. | ||
| Coney |
thank you all for the feedback, i'll run synthetic after the break in, get an oil cooler too. does anyone know of an oil temp gauge for a buell? y2k01x1, my s3t is a '99, doesn't seem to have a skip spark mode, will ask the dealer about it, perhaps a simple chip upgrade can handle that. the bike had been consuming much oil with only 2000 miles on it and i suspect it was low oil on a hot day in traffic that did me in. the dealer hasn't said it won't be covered under warranty, still keeping my fingers crossed. by the way, my dealer is southern tier harley davidson in binghamtom, ny and i have nothing but praise for their service dept. they have always come through for me. | ||
| Jasonl |
MikeJ - thanks. Just wondering after losing some oil this last week. The oil level was "low" (bottom of the dipstick) but the level was stable. I then changed the oil and got a reading of top the mark after 3 qts. I have an automotive filter on it so it can hold more than usual. BigTinVa - I'm using Mobil1 car stuff. 15w-50. Not much gets past the breathers and I'm running the stock breather lines. Coney - ASB has an oil cooler temp valve. It only opens at a pre-set oil temperature. Talk to Tat @ ASB about it. Also you WILL want to get this part if you get a cooler. If not your oil may not get hot enough to burn off the water and distillates that collect in it with the cooler constantly "on". (At least thats what I've learned from here....) | ||
| Bigblock |
Coney, try a tall dyna filter (black one) as well, it will help, too. | ||
| Vr1203 |
Jasonl&Coney-I've been using a Lockhart oil cooler with a built in thermostat for about 10 years. I believe mine is becoming stuck and not opening all the way.Maybe its better to go with the non thermostat type and just cover it when it gets cold. | ||
| Bigblock |
I have the manual bypass valve on my Jagg, I like it a lot | ||
| Jasonl |
Blake - Lol..slow night in NJ for ya?! Yer all over the net tonight! But as far as your suggestions go: No intake leaks. I've checked with water and carb cleaner got the cooler plugs no oil cooler because I ~*thought*~ they were just money catchers. I'm using a car filter that holds a qt more oil than any other MC filter The deal was I was stuck in traffic for 15 - 20 mins while moving every min or so. Hindsight says I should've taken a long cut that kept the cycle moving. That or putted up the breakdown lane and avoided the homicidal cagers who don't like being reminded that they're stuck in traffic while I'm still mobile. Cool thing is if I'm even moving 5 mph in 1st it won't heat like that. Just sitting still and idling seem to overheat the motor. Court - Drop the Ural story on us...those are neato little bikes..er..ATV's ....whatever. Rocket - (grin) Great story.. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Jasonl I'm using a car filter that holds a qt more oil than any other MC filter Careful there, make sure your "car filter" has an anti-drain back valve and a pressure relief valve, and that these are designed to work at the same pressure that HD motors use. The anti drain back valve keeps oil in the filter when you shut off the bike, so that the oil pump does not have to fill up the filter everytime you start the bike, which means that the top won't get any oil until the filter is full. The pressure relief or bypass valve in an HD filter permits the continued flow of oil if the filter becomes clogged and oil pressure builds up on the inlet side of the filter From American Iron, April 2001, page 32. | ||
| Majicmak |
Jasonl, Look,I'm with you.A cooling fan is the thing to have. I have the Buell kit,well worth the $200. But if you can't do the kit,there is another way.You know when the bike is hot.You realy don't a thermostat.Just run a wire from the safe side of the circiut breaker to a do-dad switch to the fan. Paralel in a indicator lite to the fan terminals so you don't forget it's on. Mak | ||
| Majicmak |
Jose, Guys put on large automotive filters because they hold more oil and they are cheap.(cheap,cheap,cheap) What I don't get,is how they think it helps them. The extra capacity is on the pressure side.If the bike runs low on oil,due to a leak or neglect,the pump is going to suck air.The extra few ounces of oil traped in the filter is not going to help. Dirty oil is better than no oil.That is what a by-pass valve is for. When I was in high school I had a '66 Vette.The guy I bought it from put in a high pressure oil pump.The gauge was always pinned at 80 psi.I asked around and everyone said it was ok. I remember blowing out one filter gasket. That filter was by-passing all the time wasn't it. Mak Live and learn. | ||
| Blake |
Jason: I'd like to see a pic of a filter mounted on your bike that "holds a qt more oil than any other MC filter." I can't imagine such a HUGE filter fitting on a Buell. The large HD filter holds what, maybe half a quart. That means your filter holds a quart and a half?! Call me a skeptic, but that would make your filter what, about 15 inches long? (the John Holmes oil filter?)  José: The "anti drain back valve" is part of the engine (check ball/spring), not the oil filter. Automotive filters also include the bypass circuit. Sorry to hear you are having muffler mount problems on your Blast. Could you post another pic of your failed hanger that shows the whole bracket and especially the topmost attachment bracketry? An oblique angle would be good so the left and right side can both be seen. I'm wondering if that design may have a simple flaw. Mak: Adding some additional capacity lightens the workload on the oil. If an engine is being run hard and/or at high temperatures, the extra capacity might be beneficial (don't Nascar Winston cars run like 20 qts or something like that?), plus the huge filter will provide some additional oil/engine cooling surface. I agree, adding a ?quart? (very hard to believe you could add a quart of capacity with just a filter) won't allow you to neglect keeping oil in the tank. Blake | ||
| Buellistic |
Blake: ie: OIL FILTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You should have look at my scooter at DAYTONA. You would have seen that it has a FORD MOTOCRAFT FL-1(now that HDI $ FMC are into something?????). I even left it white with a information note on it(ie: FOR MECHANIC'S who put 3 QUARTS in a 2 1/2 system!!). Also run a SPORSTER oil cooler for when I ride with ant S1/X1 riders just in case it starts to get too hot trying to keep up(also have an oil temp guage). In buelling BUELLISTIC and/or Hardley-Harley | ||
| Majicmak |
Blake, To my way of thinking: A larger oil filter does not increase oil system capacity. It only adds tramp oil to the system. Sort of like water below the dam. If you had an oil filter that held 5qt giving you a so called system of 7qt.what happens when it goes down by 2qt? Do you think you have a 5qt system or just a noisy engine? The only advantage I can see would be you could hold more dirt in solution. Oil does not give up it's heat easily.A few square inches of oil fiter can is not going to help mutch if at all. Blake,I dont want to sound like a blow hard but I have wrenched on oval track cars for years. To change oil on an old dirt tracker it would go like this; After each race nite drain the oil(12qt)un hook all the oil lines an blow them out with compresed air.Drain the oil cooler.change the canister oil filter.fill her back up. Pull the distributor. Run the oil pump with a drill motor to prime the system. Put the distributor back in and re time the motor. We did this twice a week for no pay. Putting a Ford oil filter on a Harley is just one more reason that a Buell is a poster child for Poor resale value. Mak | ||
| Jasonl |
Jose Q - I'll look into that those issues. I would think that car manufacturers would put a bypass in their filters ( I think Motorcraft filters have had this for years) but I'm not sure. Let me do some more research. Sorry to hear about your Blast losing the hanger. That blows. Someone once posted using a common car hanger for the pipe. It seemed like a pretty cool idea since the car hanger most times has a hard rubber part and then a ring to attach to the muffler pipe. Maybe that could be a downhome fix if this keeps happening. MajicMak - Thanks for the tip on the fan. Far as the filter goes I got to say I use it because they're easier to come by than HD stuff. I buy the oil and filter at the same store instead of stopping at the Hd shop and then the auto store for synthetic. Also keep in mind that these motors are a lot like old car motors. I doubt that you'll need some special filter due to those similarities. Like I told Jose...I'll have to do some more research on this and get back to ya. Thanks for bringing those points up. But why would mounting a Ford filter on a cycle lower it's resale value? I don't get that one. Blake - damn right I got the John Holmes filter. It's huge. You should see it bob going over bumps! My mistake..it holds a 1/2 qt more then. You math types...sheesh... *EVERYONE!* I apologize if you aware of this but I figured I'd drop the science (yeah right) on ya so you could check your cycle. My 98 S3 has almost cut through the wires coming off the handlebars. If you feel under the top most triple tree (if thats the right name) you'll see that where the wires go under it, back toward the frame, it has a very sharp edge. A fellow Bueller pointed this out to me while we were riding today. He rubbed his down with wet/dry sand paper to blunt that edge. The wires that were almost cut were the ones leading from my electrical controls of the handlebars. You guys may want to check this out. | ||
| Blake |
Mak: "A larger oil filter does not increase oil system capacity."  I guess you define "system" and "capacity" differently than anyone else. I see your point; I said I agreed with it already. You need to see Jason's and mine. Why do you think you ran 12 quarts in your dirt tracker? I'll tell you why... to reduce the workload on the oil circulating through the system. As long as the tank/pan level doesn't run dry, it is inconsequential whether the extra oil sits in a pan, tank, or oversized filter. Personally I think two quarts is plenty for a 74 inch engine, but if Jason wants some extra safety margin, adding another pint of oil might help, given that he is in a hot place. "Oil does not give up it's heat easily.} Okay, compared to water you are right, didn't I say that already. Now think, if it doesn't give up heat easily, doesn't that mean that it also doesn't take in heat easily either? So the more oil you have the lower it's temperature peak will be when stopped in traffic on a hot day, right? Kinda like a capacitor evens out voltage spikes, more oil capacity will help even out temperature spikes. "A few square inches of oil fiter can is not going to help mutch if at all." The large HD filter or Jason's John Holmes version will add more like 30 to 60 sq inches of surface right into the cooling airstream. Think about it, you have more oil spending less time inside the engine and more time being cooled inside an increased cooling area. Buells have poor resale? Try selling anything but a Harley after driving it off the floor. Not much difference between Jap, Brit, Italia, and Buell in % reduction in value. WTF is wrong with the oil filter? It's a good filter, easy to change. Would you rather the engine had a cast/machined in filter housing like a Jap bike? Why is this better? Now allow me the last word, leave me the freak alone, and go ride your bike dammit!  Blake PS: Don't be shy just because I'm a BBS moderator. I can take pooh as well as I dish it. | ||
| Blake |
Buellistic: I like the note idea, but you are assuming they can read? | ||
| Aikigecko |
Ford Oil filter????? What's the Part Number. Will it work on my Blast. These are very important questions for me considering that I'm moving out of the country. Anyone here use that corrugated aluminum sleeve that you put on over your oil filter to act as an oil cooler. In theory it would provide move surface area to cool but I don't know. All this talk of heat and hot oil has me wondering about how to set my bike up for life after Hawaii. peace Tony | ||
| Majicmak |
Blake, Lets look at it another way. Do you know how mutch oil is pumped by a pair of 7 tooth gears with a two inch face width that run at crankshaft speed? That is what goes on in a Nascar engine. Try a Rolls-Royce Merlin in a P51 or a Spitfire. 55 gal cap.I believe,with no oil filter. My Mercedes-Benz Diesel holds 2gal. of Mobil 1 with a filter the size of Thermos and a giant oil cooler. Why? Because it has a 14MM oil line running to the Turbocharger. The Buell has a 2qt system.That is all it needs. Roller bearings do not need that mutch oil.You could attach a side car to the Buell.Put 100 oil filters in series.And you are still going to need a top end overhaul at 50k Miles. Now the reason I was picking on you is, you are( in a small way) encouraging these guys to run these big filters.There is no benefit.The large Harley "Dyna" Filter will not hurt anything.But using a automotive filter is totally,totally,Golfing up. On re-sale value.Lets say it hurts the Buells reputation.This looks like a real sturdy engine to me.I expect good service from it.Some owners do diabolical things to them. And it gives the name a bad rap it does not fully deserve. But you know what I mean by system.And I know what the Dictonary says.I just look at how mutch oil I have at the pump as "System"and what is held in filters and cooler lines as "tramp".A machinists term for oil that has to be carried along. Mak | ||
| Jasonl |
Aikgecko - I know a Fram PH8A will attach to our 1200's. I don't know about the Blast's filter. If it's the same size then it just might work. You could also cross reference the Fram number to almost any other brand filter. MagicMak - Ok. I'll bite. How is using a larger filter going to hurt an engine? How is having more oil in a reserve tank going to hurt an engine? Essentially the big filter just adds capacity from my point of view. From that I can't really see how that would do any harm. | ||
| Blake |
Mak: You missed the point... Nascar Winston cup engines are pushing around what 700HP. With 20 qts they're running 35 HP/qt of oil. Our Buells run 101 HP with 2 qts oil, so we have 50HP/qt. The Merlin runs what 1,200 HP? With 55 qts that amounts to less than 22 HP/qt! The lubrication system flow capacity for an engine is dictated largely by size and power. A Nascar engine probably needs, what, 4 quarts to fill the engine passages/surfaces, and another 4 for the filter and cooler? (again I'm guessing, but exact numbers are not important here) So why do they need the rest sitting around in the oil tank? To put it simply, so it can rest. Do you know what Cool Whip is? It's oil. I'm not shitin' you. It's mostly vegie oil whipped to a foam along with sugar. That's roughly what happens to motor oil if you don't let it get enough rest. So the racecar's and P51's engines use a lot more oil on a power factored basis than our Buells; more than 40% more for the car and more than 44% for the fighterplane. And consider that they (the car at least) are running liquid cooled! Silly friggin Nascar teams. Wasting all that oil like that. So there's no reason to add oil capacity? I wonder why the Buell Prothunder bikes run 3 quarts? (I learned that in Daytona). Gee the meek and mild sporster engine runs 3 qts doesn't it? Stupid friggin sportster engineers! Think of all the oil that could be saved! Well Mak, I used to pooh pooh oil coolers and that type fuss, but it's starting to make sense to me, especially for cases when the bike will be in city traffic on hot days. You obviously don't see how added capacity benefits in reduced stress on the oil. Especially for conventional oil, reduced stress will greatly increase the oil's useful life. Plus, how about the advantage of increased filtration capacity, so those of us running synthetic oil can take advantage of extended drain intervals without having to change the filter in between. I in no way suggested that Jason should run that mongo John Holmes filter. But how exactly is it such a huge golfup to do so? Well that's just wrong. It's pretty friggin simple, engine lubrication is a closed "system". What you are referring to as a "system" is the oil "tank." Now stoppit! My brain is full and I'm learning too dang much new stuff. Pretty soon I'm gonna forget how to tie my shoes. Blake (thinking that cool whip analogy might be a stretch, y'all please don't start licking your dipsticks) | ||
| Ralph |
Tony, I suppose you could find 7/8" bar stock but most people would just turn 1" down. You'll notice most, if not all, of the makers of that style bar leave the section bolted to the plate the full one inch diameter. I posted a photo of the bars I made and finally attached to the S1 over on the photo page. Well, I will in a minute anyway. By the way, if I remember correctly Zippers is less than an hour from Ft Meade. Mak, you're a man who knows what he's talking about. But (always a but) while the roller bearings don't need much oil I don't don't think having an extra dose in the system is a bad thing. Oil in the filter or lines is the same as whats in the tank, 'cept its a little closer to the engine. Five quarts in the oil lines is the same as a five quart oil tank in my book. Blake, what's the big deal about cooling the motor via the oil? Sure it does some cooling but I don't think that much. This motor is just like my old Pan when it comes to this (go figure). Oil temp doesn't go up much past a certain point. Jason, do me a huge favor, get in another traffic jam until your bike overheats again and take a measurement of the oil temp in the tank. Bet you'll see very little difference in the tempurature versus normal. These motors are air cooled not oil cooled. Yes, certainly the oil provides a degree of cooling but not a large percentage. That's why personally I kinda cringe when ever some body drops the bucks on an oil cooler. Sure, it cools the oil. Does it cool the motor? Not as much a good breeze. Filter pressure bypass. I think they pretty much all do now-a-days. Easy to check. Look down inside the filter. See a spring? Guess what that is. Uh-huh, bypass. By the way, I run the large Dyna filter Better safe than sorry. bighairyralph | ||
| Blake |
bhr, I agree, not a significantly cooler engine, just a bit cooler oil. | ||
| S2no1 |
Blake, It's official. You have too much time on your hands. Go find a bicycle, moped, scooter, in-line skate, or something to ride. Arvel | ||
| Pjw |
well tell me if I am wrong but my thinking is using a automotive filter could be detrimental to the motor. High pressure filter in a low pressure system = no oil ??????? just a thought. | ||
| Blake |
High pressure filter? Low pressure system? More data please. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Blake said: José: The "anti drain back valve" is part of the engine (check ball/spring), not the oil filter. Automotive filters also include the bypass circuit. Read your online service manual. Yes there is a check ball in the engine, but a HD oil filter also has an anti drain-back valve inside it. My point about using the automotive filters is that a lot of the time these bypass valves and anti-drain back valves are designed to work at much higher oil pressures than the HD filter, so they never open when needed. Some auto filters don't even have the anti-drain back valve, because the oil filter hangs from the bottom of the engine, so it doesn't empty out when you shut it off. Funny, the Blast! has the same setup. Lots of interesting details on that bike. The Blast! oil filter is DIFFERENT from the twins. Blake, Jason: Sorry to hear you are having muffler mount problems on your Blast. It happened on my 99S3T! I don't have a Blast! yet. I am just very interested in it because it is the source of much of what is coming in July. I don't have that muffler strap anymore I gave it to the dealer yesterday. ______________________________________________________ Akigecko, Zipper's | ||
| Majicmak |
Blake, I will try my best here. The Buell runs 12-17 PSI. Lets say a Ford runs 80PSI. The Harley Filter's by-pass valve opens at lets say 17-19 psi. The Fords filter opens up at 75-80 psi. When the by-pass valve opens up there is almost no oil going through the filter media. It goes in the can, out to the bearings.They are made to do this in case it gets pluged up or you are running at high rpm at near max pressure you need the oil. When a Ford filter is used on a Harley (just because it fits) The tiny oil pump will never reach by-pass pressure.The motor could get less oil flow with a filter that is not engineered for it. A Ford uses a Huge gear pump with a spill valve. The Buell has a tiny pump with no spill valve.Everything it puts out goes to the filter. You could be running at red line with a Ford filter and you could be getting little or no oil. The oil pressure lite would not warn you of this because the pressure sending unit is on the pump side of the circiut. High Ho,High Ho,off to work... Mak | ||
| Jmartz |
Guys those checkvalves are in the engines not in the filter. I've used the Ford filter for 30000 miles. If the above was true the motor would have blown by now. Jose | ||
| Jasonl |
Is this bypass valve only important if the filter is blocked or the needed oil volume overwhelms the filter's capacity to supply the motor? (Why is it that oil and accompanying parts create the most controversy?) | ||
| Aaron |
Back in the "olden" days, the common Ford filter (FL-1A or equivalent) had an integrated bypass valve. The common Chevy filter (PF35 or equivalent) did not have the bypass integrated into the filter, it was in a little aluminum piece that bolted to the block, and the filter spun onto it. I have no idea what either company is doing anymore, I know they've changed their motors quite a bit since then. Blowing the seals out of the spin-on filters, or literally expanding the spin-on can, or breaking the bypass fitting, are all common problems on Chevy race motors. Starting a motor on a cold morning, with a high capacity oil pump and cold 50 weight oil will do that. There's lots of aftermarket stuff to fix it, though, much of which eliminates the bypass circuit. Canton/Mecca makes some really popular stuff. Dry sump systems are used on race cars primarily to keep the oil pump from running dry in long corners, but Blake is right, a good dry sump system also separates air & oil, and that's accomplished by the design of the tank and some dwell time in the tank. Dry sump systems also help power by reducing crankshaft drag. Tripper: you had me rolling on the floor with that comment about the '99 M2. Thanks AW | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Rhino, If they gutted your airbox (removed the snorkle/filter box) and put the venturi on the intake, put the snorkle/filter box back in. I had the same symptoms you described and I put the snorkle back in and it cleared up. I think what happens is that at low rpms the snorkle helps to speed up the intake air like a velocity stack. Try that and see what happens. ________________________________________________ Choptop, Likely that's what happened. My mechanic at HDW actually put TWO grounding cables at that muffler mount because he did not like the setup. __________________________________________________ Neil, X1Chip Thanks, I just totally copied the Blast! setup from the service manual. _________________________________________________ Oil filters, I changed the oil on my bike over the weekend, so I still have the box that the HD filter comes in:   Look at the closeup, then look at these pictures from page 34 of the April 2001 issue of American Iron   Bottom line, if the oil filter is designed for your bike model and year, buy it. Otherwise, be very very careful. | ||
| Blake |
Mak: Does an 80 psi oil pump mean you have to have an 80 psi bypass valve? No way! The bypass action would need to initiate at a low enough delta (difference between the filter in/out ports) pressure to avoid destroying the filter's internals. I'm guessing that delta pressure is the same no matter what pressure the "system" runs. Also, 80 psi at the pump does not mean 80 psi everywhere, does it (think about the pan in your car)?. Was the canister in your racecar built to withstand 80PSI? Can you imagine the leakage if we had 80psi in our cars' oil pan?! Oil would be spewing allover the place! It takes a lot of pressure to force oil throught the passages and journal bearings in a car engine. BTW, where is the oil filter on a car these days, between pump and engine (high pressure side), or between engine and oil pan (low pressure side)? I truly don't know. Were you using 12 and 80 psi for illustration, or are those the real numbers? I'd like to know what the actual oil pressure specs are. I know 80 psi is at the extreme high end for a car. Anti-drain valve (for José Q): It's funny how oil pours right out of my filter when I remove it. All the filters I've seen have an empty hole inside the middle of the filter; the hole in the middle is the output port of the filter. Where is this so called anti-drain valve? Why have one both in the filter and in the engine? Is the filter anti drain valve on the input side of the filter (holes around circumference of filter face)? Hmmmm. Maybe soooo? (light bulb now glimmering over Blake's head) All: There are a lot of people taking this stuff in on this public formum. If we aren't sure of the facts, please... we should say so. Passing off heresay and conjecture as fact ain't good. Of course, we have enough smart fellas here that nobody will get away with BS for long, myself included. Am I right? I am just soooo thankful to have a forum to discuss this kinda stuff. It is very interesting to me! Blake {happy new owner of a tricked out '97 M2 from NYC!!!) Got a pic, wanna see it? Here it is!  | ||
| Blake |
José, thanks for the pics, crystal clear now! Blake (getting sunburned from dang light bulb!)  | ||
| Majicmak |
Blake, Sure "80psi"is used for illustration. 12-17 psi is spec for the Buell. Page up and look at that oil filter diagram that Jose was so kind to post.See that RELIEF VALVE ASSEMBLY.The one that Harley sells is correct.A filter for a F250 is not. Gentlemen never argue. I will allow you the last word. Mak | ||
| Buelliedan |
I have to side with MajicMak on the oil filter issue. Cars run about 40psi and the relief valve in the filter is designed for that pressure. Our bikes run the 12psi that he said. That is quite a difference and I wouldn't want to risk it just because the car filter is cheaper or bigger. The Dyna longs are proven to work well on our bikes and they are bigger so why risk it? | ||
| Jasonl |
Interesting reading on oil filters. It doesn't address the pressure issue but says a thing or two about construction: http://members.nbci.com/minimopar/oilfilterstudy.html | ||
| Court |
I have adapted the oil filter from a Caterpillar D-8H. I have found that with 42 gallons of oil capacity, that I can ride for up to an hour in the time it takes the oil to cycle. As an aside...one of the aircraft I used to fly held something like 24 quarts but was "low" at something like 6. Point is, most of the oil was for cooling. Court Trying to figure out how the heck I got all these miles > without overheating being a problem. Of course, I never slowed down in the Mojave or in the 120F that the Motorcycle Online boys lamented about.... | ||
| Fastback69 |
Instead of putting on a larger auto oil filter, why not add a scavenge oil filter instead. The oil gets filtered twice, and the oil capacity goes up a little. A small micronic stainless mesh filter would work great and it would be reusable. | ||
| Buelliedan |
I'm surprised that no one has suggested welding up your frame and making it into the oil reservoir. Should hold at least 3 quarts and think of all the cooling air flow across the frame. Then you could weld up a custom under the seat exhaust where the oil tank used to be!! Any welders out there?? | ||
| Ralph |
Josh, an impact driver (driven by hammer(you know that makes it even better!!)) is all the tool you need for those stubborn bolts. Cost less than twenty bucks. See if you can't return that high dollar tool or swap it out for some other tools you may need. Dan, don't forget if you use the frame as an oil tank it's going to be over 200F. Kinda hot. God forbid you get a leak. Guys, the oil pressure may be 12-17 pounds, but when. You may find the pressure goes a touch higher than that above idle. Like a big touch. Blake, I got my S1 off of ebay too. 'Cept I had to drive to Texas to get it. Man, what a sucky place bighairyralph | ||
| Buelliedan |
Ralph, Actually I don't think you will see the oil pressure go much higher than 18 psi. Remember these are roller bearings not babbits. No need for extremely high pressures. I have seen several sportsters with the push in oil pressure gauges and the oil pressure is low, scary low if you are used to small block Chevys!! I know the oil in the frame idea is a stretch but wouldn't it be cool!!! At least give me the under the seat exhaust like a Ducatti!! | ||
| Bigj |
If there were some tangible advantage by using an automotive filter over the HD kind, I could see it. But, from all I've read and heard, that pressure by pass IS a issue. The long HD Dyna filter holds a good bit of oil, why not use it? They are actually very well made. A new alternative on the shelves soon is from K&N. They are making HD specific filters, including a long Dyna style. I use K&N auto oil filters, and they are made like a tank! big j | ||
| Bigj |
Let me rephrase. I use K&N auto filters on autos! big j | ||
| Bigj |
If I used dino oil(not saying I do or don't), I'd change it every 500 miles. If I used an ester based synthetic(not saying I do or don't), I'd change it every 2k miles. If I used HD filters(and I do,right now!), I'd change them when I changed my oil. You know what's cool about gas prices going up? It makes race gas seem like such a better deal! big j | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Jeff with the 99 X1 Probably an intake leak, check the intake manifold gaskets and the injector o-rings. The race ecm runs almost a little too rich, so when this extra air enters the air box through the leaks, it mixes with the extra fuel that the ECM is sending, and the idle speed rises. Try this: leave your bike in first gear, when it goes to 2000 rpm, let the clutch out a little. My experience was that the idle would drop to 1000 rpm until the next time you gassed it. __________________________________________________ Oil Filters, Ok, now everybody knows that the motor has a check valve, and the filter also has an anti-drainback valve on the intake side of the filter (the little holes around the large threaded one) The pressure issue is critical. These are very low pressure motors. Pop Quiz: What pressure will open the check ball valve inside the motor? | ||
| Jasonl |
I'd say the pressure that these motors run at is the main issue here. While reading the website I posted the number thrown around as the point where the bypass would allow oil to flow without passing through the filtering media was pretty high. Thats why I was curious at what point the bypass was needed. If it was only needed when the filter was blocked or during startup or both. At this point I'd like to cut up a HD filter along with a car filter and see what the difference is between the bypasses. I think that would tell the real story. | ||
| S2no1 |
Jasonl, No need to cut the filters. Take a long extension and put it on the spring at the bottom. Use some weights to calculate the spring constant. You will need to know the deflection required to by pass and the size of the plunger at the bottom. Naw, your right just cut em up. This is all very interesting. I though that the oil filter by pass is supposed to work when the filter is clogged. I expect that a relative minor pressure change is required and much less than the max pressure in a Car engine, now in a Buell? HMMM. Now on the other hand, that "keeping oil in the filter makes sense." Josh, Ping me. I'll tell you how bad you can really screw up. You aren't even in the big leagues yet. Court, I agree. Never, Never, Never, (I mean Never) make an Italian, Spanish, Greek or South American Woman ANGRY. Something about anyone with Mediterranean blood. Along this path leads to things much worse and more permanent than divorce (Shudder). There are things worse than death. Much safer to stay home, married, and get old with her. But the food is almost always great!!!. Arvel | ||
| Raymaines |
I changed the oil in in my boys Y2K M2 over the weekend. That makes me an expert on everything pertaining to oil and here's what I've got to say about that. The owners manual and service manual agree that you put 4 ounces of oil in the filter and that the oil tank capacity is 2 quarts. The language is vague as to weather the first 4 ounces is part of the 2 quarts or not, but at most the total capacity of the system is 2 quarts plus 4 onces. Lets call it 6 ounces, maybe 8 ounces because I use the long Dyna filter (the John Holmes lite model). So I changed the oil and installed the filter and added THREE full quarts (total, including the filter) to bring the oil level up to 1/2 way between the two marks on the dip stick. What's up with that? Yes! I did everything right. Ran the engine to bring up the oil pressure, checked the oil level right away. Flat level ground. Let the bike sit over night then ran the engine, checked the level, took a 15 mile test ride and checked the level again. Half way between the marks every time. I know I've got the right amount of oil in the system but I wonder why it's really a three quart system? | ||
| Fogcity |
Since we're talking about filters, how about talking about oils. I had the first servicing done on my '01 M2 today (I'm new at this, I'll do my own later) and the seemingly proficiant very nice service dude told me, off the record as he put it, to switch to a synthetic oil after the third oil change. What do you think, and what's the best synthetic oil? I've got lots to learn - thanks | ||
| S2no1 |
Fogcity, Now you've done it. Everyone get ready. Now all we need is someone to mention contact patches, puke cans, and don't forget the gun rights and knives. Oh yeah need Cecil too. Oh No, I mentioned them.  Arvel | ||
| Blake |
Poof! The BBS hits critical mass and migrates into the matrix, sucking all our Buells with it. | ||
| Mdx1 |
s2no1 wait...don't forget "breathers"... | ||
| Bigj |
Ray: Since I've been using the finned cooler in between the block and the filter AND the Long Dong Silver..er, Dyna filter, I put a little over 3 quarts in to bring it up to halfway. big j | ||
| Krboller |
With all this oil conjecture (maybe) alot of question could be answered as to the health of your oil by having a spectroghaphic analysis performed, this simple test cost $14 and will tell you all kinds of great info regarding whats in your oil, viscosity at change interval and if you need to find a better oil. I have been using blackstone labs since I changed my X1 oil and found it looked like metal flake paint! I send in samples at each change interval on my X1, the lab provides an ongoing comparison, its a great resource! Find Blackstone with a quick search and read up, it will answer all your questions, it did mine! | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Raymaines, I had the same experience this weekend regarding the oil level. We'll see if it pukes it or not. _________________________________________________ OIL - bottom line: HD is good, Synthetic is Better. My only question is wether Mobil 1 15W50 car oil is that much different than their V-Twin 20W50, other than the first weight rating, the bottle sticker and price (VTwin = $8!). I remember that the Tilley Buell had cases of MOBIL 1 15W50 CAR OIL in their trailer when I saw it last year at Mid-Ohio. Did anybody at Sears point see what oil they are using now? From the stuff I have read (Motorcycle Consumer News, American Iron) the additive packages are the same between Mobil 1's car and bike oils. __________________________________________________ Oil Filters, I'll repost this summary from May 6: The anti drain back valve keeps oil in the filter when you shut off the bike, so that the oil pump does not have to fill up the filter everytime you start the bike, which means that the top end won't get any oil until the filter is full. The pressure relief or bypass valve in an HD filter permits the continued flow of oil if the filter becomes clogged and oil pressure builds up on the inlet side of the filter From American Iron, April 2001, page 32. __________________________________________________ Oil System Pressure, No one wants to answer my question about what pressure will open the check valve inside the motor? I'll add two more questions, these are easy to find in the Service Manual: 1. What pressure does the oil pump operate at 1000 rpm (idling)? 2. What pressure does the oil pump operate at 2500 rpm? 3. What pressure does the check ball valve inside the motor open up at to allow oil to flow? Hint: it's all in the SERVICE MANUAL. They are also all below 20 psi. | ||
| Jasonl |
Fogcity - I use mobil1 15w-50. Everyone has their theory. I'd say use what you like but change it often. Jose - I gotta say...yer one book reading fool..er smart guy! Did you read encyclopedia's cover to cover as a kid? for fun? Thanks for the info. Car systems tend to run a big higher I think. |
