| Author | Message | ||
     Johnboy777 |
I have a 2007 Uly, and sent an oil sample to Blackstone Labs on Monday, as I recall, via UPS. I received their report within an email, in Adobe Acrobat, just now. I plan to post the Blackstone Labs Oil Report, here, as soon as I figure out a way to post a page from Adobe Acrobat. But first, here are their comments, to me. I stated to them, that I was interested, mostly, in bearing wear: JOHN: Bearing wear is usually seen at lead, though there are some exceptions. Since some lead is present in the oil, it is more than likely that the main and rod bearings are of the traditional babbit style. Aluminum and copper can also be bearing metals in some situations, though we don't think that's where they are coming from in this sample. It is our understanding that your Buell has a wet-clutch configuration and that the engine and transmission share the same oil, increasing the possible sources for wear. Suggest resampling after about 1,500 miles on the next oil to monitor. I'll post the entire report as soon as I can. ... | ||
| Dfishman |
So they know nothing about a Buell engine? | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Until I can post the entire Report – here are the elements (in parts per million) that are higher than their (Blackstone’s’) so-called ‘Universal Averages’. Because I am interested only in bearing wear, at this point, those elements found within my oil sample that were lower than their Universal Averages, were not included below. Those elements which are higher than Blackstone Labs’ Universal Averages are: Element --My Oil --Universal Averages Aluminum ........12.........4 Copper............72.........30 Silver............102........74 Silicon...........19...........12 Boron.............265........82 Lead.................5............3 (Message edited by johnboy777 on September 15, 2011) | ||
| Johnboy777 |
""So they know nothing about a Buell engine?"" Bingo! EDIT: I sent them an email reply pointing out their error. I am sending an oil sample to Amsoil, as well. (Message edited by johnboy777 on September 15, 2011) | ||
| Luftkoph |
mine was pretty close to yours johnboy supposedly the high silver is the bearing cages on the big end. | ||
| Court |
 Blackstone on the left Amsoil on the right NOTE: These are for my car. I'll do the bike at the next oil change. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
""mine was pretty close to yours johnboy supposedly the high silver is the bearing cages on the big end."" I like looking at percentages. Silver is only 25% higher, well okay. But the Copper content is nearly 250% higher, and Aluminum content, 300% higher. Blackstone: “”Aluminum and copper can also be bearing metals in some situations,”” I need to understand what these higher Copper and Aluminum percentages mean. . | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Where would the copper be coming from? | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Copper would come from the bronze bushing that the crank is supported on one end by (I think) | ||
| Johnboy777 |
""Where would the copper be coming from?"" Brass is an alloy, used for bearing material. Both Copper and Zinc, are components of Brass. When it breaks down, I would imagine it does so returning to the elements (Copper and Zinc) of which it's made. I imagine there are other elements present in Brass (Lead?), that I am not aware of. Aluminum, as a bearing material, is a new one on me. . | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Oh of course. Whey must use a spectrometer. So alloys aren't even registered. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Here's a thought; i use Loctite 565 Thread Sealant on my oil plug. I think the service manual might have recommended it. We are talking parts per million here - as the oil drains out what if some leftover/caked sealant is being deposited into the oil. What's in the sealant?  | ||
| Johnboy777 |
I emailed Henkel, the Loctite people, this AM, and asked if their 565 Sealant contained Copper or Aluminum - here's their reply: Hi John, No, there is no Copper or Aluminum content in the 565. Being an Anaerobic product (cure mechanism is absence of Oxygen, presence of metal), if there were any copper or aluminum in it then it would cause the product to cure. Cheers, Braydon Campeau Technical Information Representative Henkel Corporation Canada | ||
| Bike_pilot |
FWIW aluminum bearings are extremely common in bikes. Most plain bearings ride in aluminum case bores. I think this is the case for the cams on newer XB motors, but haven't pulled one apart myself. I know its the case for the cams on most all Japanese motors. In the old days they fitted a copper-ish plain bearing (like a crank big end bearing) to the case bore, but in the interest of saving weight, cost and reducing size these have been done away with and the cam or whatever rides right in the aluminum bore with no bush or bearing. These still last forever provided oil pressure is maintained, loose pressure and they go almost instantly. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
John, This is all very interesting stuff. My question is this: What lab result would actually get a person (you) to preemptively spend a presumably large amount of money on your engine? I could see a few hundred bucks but is that what we are looking at here? What's the cost of a 2008 crank and the other stuff necessary to do this right? That is what really would be important information to me since my son's bike is a potential future problem. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
http://www.bmed.mcgill.ca/dept_resources/machine_s hop/miscellaneous/msds/Loctite%20565%20Thread%20Se alant%20PST%20Pipe%20Sealant%20with%20PTFE.pdf | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Aluminum is most likely from the oil moving through aluminum passageways throughout the engine and the swingarm. The oil gets a bit acidic with the condensates and this would leach at the aluminum. (Message edited by electraglider_1997 on September 16, 2011) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Bike Pilot... XB cams ride in special journals. They look like bronze, not sure what they really are. You are right though... japanese bikes do indeed run their cams on the aluminum... I have a ruined head for a KLR-250 to prove it.  Not sure about the Helicon. | ||
| Bike_pilot |
I'm pretty sure that's not the case for '08+ XBs, but that prior XBs did have some sort of bronze journals. I'm nearly certain I remember this being a topic of discussion when the details for the '08 first became available, though its possible I've confused things (first time for everything huh?  ) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Interesting. My first hand experience was on a 2000 M2 and an 05 XB, so my information is dated as well. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Troubling to me, at this point in time, is that the Copper content is almost 250% (2 1/2 times) the norm. And Aluminum, 300%, or 3 times the norm (their so-called 'Universal Averages'). My email to Blackstone (last night): Greetings - first let me thank you for your Oil Report, and the fast turnaround time. You received my sample on Wed. afternoon, and by Thurs. I had my report in my email. NOTE: your comment to me, within my report, was in error: ''it is our understanding that your Buell has a wet-clutch configuration and that the engine and transmission share the same oil, increasing the possible sources for wear."" Wrong, absolutely not - the Buell engine DOES NOT share the same oil as the clutch and transmission...I sampled the engine oil alone. The 'Primary' (transmission and clutch) are separate, and were not sampled. Please revise your comments, with that in mind. Thank in advance for your help. Have a great day, John They reissued their report; resending it this AM.... JOHN: Amended report. Bearing wear is usually seen at lead, though there are some exceptions. Since some lead is present in the oil, it is more than likely that the main and rod bearings are of the traditional babbit style. Aluminum can be a bearing metal in some situations, though we don't think that's the case for your engine. Copper comes from brass/bronze parts such as a valvetrain bushing. Babbit-style bearings also put copper into the oil, so we aren't 100% sure about bearing wear in this first report. Suggest resampling after about 1,500 miles on the next oil to monitor. ... | ||
| Johnboy777 |
WTF - let me just "re-sample" my life away. And keep putting money in their pockets. No, I am not a happy camper. Amsoil here I come. .... | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
2008 and up XB engines with the oil pump directly on the ends of the middle two cams are bare aluminum. 2007 and back to 1957 use bronze I'm pretty sure. Why does he keep harping on babbit bearings when there are NONE in our engines! meh. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Actually, we are in the best position to find triggers. We need a table mapping bikes by year to the oil they use, and the blackstone or amsoil results with specific concentrations of each element. Problem bikes should stand out like a sore thumb. Thanks for the first data point Johnboy! Who's next? | ||
| Johnboy777 |
""We need a table mapping bikes by year to the oil they use, and the Blackstone or Amsoil results with specific concentrations of each element."" This is exactly on target - thank you, Reepicheep We (the 2007 owners) need to deal with this head on, in a proactive way. The more 'data points', as Reepicheep calls them, we can have the better off we’ll be. At a total cost of $35.00 (Blackstone or Amsoil) why not? Let's pick a lab we can all live w/ and get the first 6 or so 2007's on board and get this started. My Amsoil kit should be at my door by Monday. So I'll be fine w/ either one. ... | ||
| Reepicheep |
Want to wait and see what the Amsoil report looks like from Court? Blackstone did fine with the analysis from a content perspective, but didn't put much effort into the interpretation, even after you fed them information. Lets see if Amsoil is better or worse. And if they are even close, I'm inclined to support the company that is keeping Geoff May on the track.... | ||
| Etennuly |
First, I will say I have not studied one or had one apart. Check your oil pump gears for composition. You will likely find bronze gears with some kind of shim/washers running in an aluminum housing. Aluminum can easily come from the piston skirts touching the cylinder walls. What do we have for valve rocker bearings? Are they roller or babbit? | ||
| Johnboy777 |
As a follow up here, Andy Martin, Writer/Analyst, Blackstone Laboratories has been discussing this via email with me. They seem very much interested in our crank situation as it pertains to the 2007 Buells. I will post more of their correspondence and insight, as soon as I have it. Let's give them a chance and see how this plays out with Blackstone. ... | ||
| Reepicheep |
Fair enough. If ever there was a scenario where they can add value, this is it. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
As luck would have it, the brown truck just dropped off my Amsoil Kit. Very similar to the Blackstone Kit, but Amsoil sends you a pre-paid UPS mailer. Both kits total approx. $35.00 for the report. Here's the Amsoil Kit:  |
