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Preybird1
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 - 01:25 pm: | 
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I had a problem just like this and i shot gunned the bike with parts. It was happening at a certain amount of time and or when the bike got to a certain temp. It ended up being the ECM, It had shorted out on the 2 pins that receive the signal from the o2 sensor and would act up intermittently. I took me a year of swapping parts to finally figure this out. I smelled the ECM and it smelled burned like plastic and wires kind of smell.
If you have your other ECM test it out and smell it!
otherwise i would highly recommend a dyno and custom mapping! |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 - 06:20 pm: |
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Custom Eeprom sent.
Mike I know this may sound dumb but have you tried to remove the fuses and relays to clean the fuse box terminals with contact cleaner?.....
I had exactly the same symptoms than yours on my X1 a few years ago. My bike started to developed a misfire / backfire as soon as I rolled the throttle/ when I opened throttle about 5-25% off idle and turned out be the fuse box.
Make sure your fuse box terminals are snugan and clean of oxidation.
Spry contact cleaner to fuse box terminals and let them to dry and back to plugged them again.
Could this be the main problema?.... I dunno but is a idea.......
Let's hope everything turns out all right!.
Let us know how it goes....
Regards.
(Message edited by buellisticx1 on April 28, 2010) |
Shooter
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 - 06:56 pm: |
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Relays and fuse box, ECM, Those are good ideas. when the bike misses it's like you hit the kill switch... I remember when my kickstand switch failed (with like 300 miles on the bike) the backfire damn near gave me heart failure!
Last night the bike stalled in downtown traffic, I tried to recreate the condition this morning and could not, it's definitely becoming more erratic.
thanks for all the help guys, and keep the ideas coming! helps build up the knowledge base for all of us 
(Message edited by SHOOTER on April 28, 2010) |
Kalali
| | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 11:00 am: |
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This is getting quite intriguing...
I reread the thread once again to look for the engine temp sensor and saw you checked the sensor using ECMSPY. I honestly don't know how reliable that is but I suggest checking it again using the FSM procedure, e.g., temp vs. resistance, etc., just to be sure. A lot of folks have had problems with that sensor. I also noticed your had issues while in closed loop even with a new O2 sensor. You may want to disable your O2 sensor just as an experiment and make a run and see how the bike behaves. One last thing. I've also read here folks having very "strange" running issues and it turned out to be the battery. Apparently a low battery can negatively affect signals from/to the ECM resulting in totally unrelated and nonintuitive symptoms. Keep at it. You will get it fixed. |
Shooter
| | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2010 - 08:47 am: |
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Intriguing yes, but that wasn't the word in my head when I got stuck behind slow traffic last night and the bike stalled twice!
I restarted it by just cycling the key (then it compression started) So that would support the closed loop circuit being the problem? ( btw, it never threw a code)
When I looked at the plugs, the front plug was definitely fouled, the rear plug was not fouled but looked grey or "ashen" on the electrode (this is the same condition as from before I changed the injectors)
Also, the AFV was 86 , (it was 81 and I set it to 100 the night before)
I think I have a chicken or the egg problem here.
If the plugs are fouled, they don't ignite the mixture cleanly, and the 02 sensor sees a rich condition?
or...
Are the plugs fouling because the ecm is putting too much fuel into the cylinders?
I watch the 02 sensor on ecm spy and it seems to react quickly,and the voltages are in the correct range.
I will be checking the eng temp sensor this weekend. How do I disable the 02 sensor? first I need to "fetch", check the box, then upload eeprom? |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2010 - 09:20 am: |
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Not Mike,
Go to diagnostic screen and click on the box "O2 sensor 0ff" and then burn.
For not O2 sensor code, do click on the box 13 "sensor inactive" and burn. That's it all.
Good luck! |
Kalali
| | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2010 - 12:40 pm: |
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Your front plug got fouled because when the ECM sees the AFV=86 it increases the injector pulse width and adds fuel (~14%)to both front and rear regardless of the condition of the front map. My guess is that your stalling situation is not directly related to the condition of your fuel maps and is either temperature or spark related. While you are in the trial&error mode, you can also try "locking" your AFV=100 (by setting both the max and min to 100) and see what happens. Keep in mind though even if the bike may start to run fine by these experiments (disable O2 and AFV=100), you would still need to address the root cause and put things back to the "normal" settings. Just my opinion. |
Shooter
| | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2010 - 12:48 pm: |
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Printing screens in ecm spy, that's my next trick!
So, I too it out this morning with 2 new plugs , fresh TPS reset and the AFV reset to 100, no other changes.
started missing under acceleration almost right away, then stalled while rolling off the throttle coming into a corner...cycled the key and she bump started right up. I then let the bike go into closed loop for a while, and it ran great.I don't have ECM spy with me, but my guess is the AFV reset to the low 80's again.
I check the front plug and it is black and sooty.
I am at sea level ( literally...I ride a ferry across the Puget Sound every morning)
The Buell DDFI doc that is floating around the interwebs says:
If the AFV is lower than normal, the system is trying to correct for a situation which is causing the mixture to be too rich. Look for incorrect ignition timing and TPS zero setting, high fuel pressure or a leaking injector as well as a sensor malfunction.
So, a new question:
why does the Engine Temp Sensor cost $80 ? I want to swap it out but geez, I hate throwing $$ at a problem. |
Kalali
| | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2010 - 03:14 pm: |
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Shooter, I have to apologize. In regards to my remarks about the AFV, I got my logic totally reversed in my last post.
As for the temp sensor, did you find the section in the FSM that talks about how to test the thing? I'll look for it tonight and see if I can find it. |
Shooter
| | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2010 - 04:36 pm: |
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no problem Kalali. The relationship between AFV and the fuel maps is sort of counter-intuitive, especially if it isn't following the expected behavior...
I am going to have to just replace the temp sensor, as whatever is creating the issue is just intermittent enough that I am not sure if the test( Ohm value vs. temp) will reveal anything.The sensor came with the new heads,it has less than 5k miles on it. |
Kalali
| | Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2010 - 08:41 am: |
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I hope that solves your problem. I've personally have never had a problem with mine but other folks have. Maybe you could find someone close by to swap sensors... |
Shooter
| | Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2010 - 04:49 pm: |
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Got the new engine temp sensor in today. The resistance values for the new and old sensors were identical, so unless the problem was intermittent we are back to square zero.It did come with a new packard style plug , I assume there were issues with the old style? |
Shooter
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 11:13 am: |
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Monday Morning update :
Installed new cylinder head temp. sensor with a new packard plug. Check resistance value at ecm, all good.
Installed new 02 sensor for the heck of it.
Swapped Coils because I could.
Swapped the ECM just because I have two.
Installed new NGK plugs.
Ran the motor up to operating temp and in and out of closed loop on ecm spy. The only thing that looked odd was that the 02 sensor voltage stayed high (.7-.8v)...my understanding is that the rear cylinder is running rich if that is what the 02 sensor is seeing? 
Went for a 10 mile test ride, no high speeds, but the bike ran great. 2nd gear power wheelies no problem.
Rode it to work this morning,and it started backfiring , stalling, missing AGAIN!! |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 03:01 pm: |
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a log with a warm and hot engine might give a clue what's going wrong.
You replaced all parts except the TPS sensor, Have you checked it after to do a TPS reset?.......
Regards. |
Shooter
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 11:09 am: |
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I started again from scratch last night, after a particularly bad spout of stalling and backfiring.
The bike would stall and restart, no cycle of the key required. This was with fresh plugs, so I started to think the problem was not mixture related at all, but electrical in nature.
I started through the FSM procedures again,going through the ignition circuit. I put a wrench on the neg. battery post and got about 3/4 of a turn on it. The cable felt snug before, but I hadn't actually put a wrench on it. I also replaced the ignition fuse, just for grins.I also put in a used set of autolite platinum style plugs I had saved, rather than ruing another set of DCPR8's. When I restarted the bike on ecm spy, the voltage was .5 - 1 vdc higher than I was seeing before ( 13.2-13.7 vdc). After the warm up the 02 sensor voltage started swinging much faster than I had witnessed before.
I rode it to work today and it ran good, no backfires.I will look at the AFV when I get home tonight.
So the synopsis is it might have been a voltage issue... |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 04:03 pm: |
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A loose ground wire can do all kinds of odd stuff. That would explain a lot of problems.
Glad you found the problema.
Regards. |
Shooter
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 05:59 pm: |
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I am not 100% sure, but feeling confident. I am most interested in what the AFV will be. |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 06:22 pm: |
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BTW, did you try on your bike the eeprom I sent you?......
I am looking forward to know.......
I will cross my fingers and let’s see how it goes.
Please, keep us posted. |
Kalali
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 12:08 pm: |
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Please don't tell us this was all caused by a loose negative battery cable??!!
Sorry, could not resist... |
Shooter
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 01:03 pm: |
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Actually no.
Last night I connected to ecm spy and had an AFV of 81.
I rode to work this morning, and after 40 clean running miles it had a backfiring episode.I was in 3rd about 40 mph when I jerked open the throttle to catch a light that was changing. bam abam bam. It cleared up and I went another 10 miles to the ferry, another cold start and a mile to work with no issues.
By tightening the battery neg post terminal I obviously improved the ground based on the improvement I saw in the 02 sensor reponse, however it is still running rich.
I really wish it had just been the battery cable. |
Shooter
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 12:12 pm: |
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Welcome back sports fans...
I cleaned up the main chassis ground and the ignition relays last night.I did notice something odd, if I cycle the kill switch like 10 times, I can get a relay to chatter....not every time, but like every 10th time.
I rode the bike to work, and it ran great,
except
for it stalling coming out of a hard left on the gas. I had to cycle the key once and it restarted.
So, I am thinking tonite I will jump the kill switch terminals and see what that does. |
Kalali
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 01:09 pm: |
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What about replacing or switching the two the relays (unless you did that already)?
At $5 a pop it might be worth the experiment.
The plot keeps getting thicker but it looks like you are getting to the bottom of it... |
Sparky
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2010 - 03:42 am: |
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I think you might need a new On/Off Switch or clean the contacts on that switch after taking it apart. Wouldn't you agree?
It sounds like there is an interruption in the ignition circuit somewhere. |
Shooter
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 11:04 am: |
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the saga continues...
swapped the ignition and start relays, bypassed the engine on/off switch ( kill switch). Bike ran great for 20 miles / 2 warm up cycles, than started acting up with the exact same symptoms today. Next Stop: key switch.
I am at work and do not have access to a wiring diagram. Does anybody know of one available electronically? (2000 s-3) |
Shooter
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 11:02 am: |
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I disabled the Bank Angle sensor last night,
But it started stalling and backfiring about a mile into my commute.
It seemed like I couldn't go past 3000 rpm either way without a backfire or stall. The tach does not jump around at all, it tracks rpm of the dead engine. Cycle the key and it bump starts. The trouble light just flashes then clears?
I have a new ignition switch coming, tonight going home I am going to jump the ignition key switch and see if taking the switch 100% out of the equation does anything. |
Terrys1980
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 11:24 am: |
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The trouble light isn't staying on long enough for you to fetch the trouble code with ECMSpy? |
Shooter
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 11:33 am: |
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That's correct Terry. The trouble lite picks after the motor has already stalled.The only trouble code I have recovered since the problems started was fuel pump open/short ( I have used the ecm spy test function on the fuel pump and it cycles fine) |
Terrys1980
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 12:02 pm: |
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I am not that familiar with the yr model you have, does it have a intake temp sensor? If so it might be dirty? I read over the thread but there is a lot of info on it to process at once. |
Shooter
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 12:24 pm: |
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Yes, it has IAT sensor, it appears to track temp accurately when I have observed it in ecm spy.I also sprayed the bulb with contact cleaner. |
Shooter
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 02:53 pm: |
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I have noticed these status lights change state... what do they mean?
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