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Buell Forum » Knowledge Vault (tech, parts, apparel, & accessories topics) » Brakes » My Front Brake Pulsing Issue/Fix - '06 XB12X Uly « Previous Next »

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Arcticktm
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 01:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

'06 XB12X Uly with 18K+ miles.
Ridden mostly in twisty mountain roads.

Stock set up began to notice pulsing about 1 year after purchase.

Switched to Lyndall gold pads per BadWeb advice. Cleaned rotor with Scotch-Brite and lots of brake cleaner before installing them.

Lyndalls reduced the pulsing feel for a while, but I do NOT like their casual engagement feel. They are also a mess
for brake dust, though I could live with that if I liked the performance.

Pulsing gradually got worse and worse.

Last summer, used Garnet paper, per suggestions found on the Stop Tech website that is often referred to in discussions on BadWeb about the mis-diagnosis of "warped" rotors.
this helped some for a while, but it came back pretty quickly, even while following advice to avoid stopping with the front brakes on (to avoid uneven pad material deposits).

Tired of the low performing Lyndall's (just not my style, I guess), I got DP sintered HH pads this spring. I had previously noticed the brakes dragged more in one area of the rotor, and this area had a mounting fastener with less (but still some) rotor free-play than the other 5 mounts.
I removed rotor, cleaned the hell out of it (wire wheel and then Garnet paper, lots of cleaner), cleaned the hardware (which I re-used against the SM advice), and re-installed with DP pads.
Rotor now had roughly equal free-play at all 6 mounts.
Test ride revealed pulsing was now worse than ever, since the DP pads had more initial bite than the Lyndalls.
A few hundred miles did not help. It sucked.

Last resort was to replace the rotor.

Found that Erik Buell Racing had 6mm rotors (stock is 5mm thick) for $125, and there own alternative mounting hardware for about $42. This was less money than buying OEM stuff from HD, so I asked them a bunch of questions via email. They responded the same day, with info that led me to the 6mm rotor (vs. the 5mm finned rotor they also sell) and their mounting kit (which removes the springs and replaces them with Belleville washers and copper washers).
Parts arrived quickly.
Also ordered EBC HH pads, to avoid any concern of cross contamination from used pads on old rotor.
Did a brake fluid change at same time just to be efficient.

Installed and test rode yesterday for about 20 twisty mountain road miles.
So far, so great!
Zero pulsing, love the early feel of the EBC's (not all too much bite for me), and I have 1 finger braking again!

I have not yet put it back on stand to see if there are any "grabby" spots on rotor, but I feel nothing but goodness.
The lever seems to travel a bit farther before resistance is felt, but that could be my imagination. I did not adjust the lever wheel, but I did change the brake fluid (used gravity bleed method).

Big ride planned this Thurs-Sun, so I hope the good feeling continues.

It also felt better to support the real Buell, and not buy from H-D.
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Slowride
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 02:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Interesting read, I had an 06 Uly that was pulsing a little when I traded it in, to the point though... I now have a 09 Uly and I have noticed the brake lever travels farther before engaging than it did on the 06.

The scary feeling for me is spending an afternoon on the 1125 CR with the ZTL2 front brake and then ride home on the Uly. It is instant on with the CR and I find myself grabbing a handfull of brake with the Uly after I get off of the CR.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 04:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Articktm- Thanks much for this info. Could you elaborate on what EB Racing said on the 6 mm rotor versus the "finned" 5 mm rotor? I'm planning to change mine in the near future too.
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Alchemy
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This rotor may help but it will be more convincing after a few thousand miles. Many things seem to help temporarily.

I think there may be something to the method of using the front brake and the pulsing. I use the rear brake to hold the bike when stopped and it does seem to make at least some small positive result over time. I also am now using the EBC HH pads.

I would also like to know what in the EBR communications swayed you to the 6mm rotors vs the finned rotors. Improved heat management may be the solution by whatever method.

Thanks for your report!
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Terrys1980
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 - 02:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Most of the pulsing is from deposits left on the rotor from the brake pads. One way to avoid this is not to hold the front brakes when stopped while the brakes are at high temps. Organic pads are more susceptible to this because of the softer materials used. You do not want to use sintered pads on regular steel rotors, only stainless steel. The 5mm finned rotor may dissipate heat and stop better but may warp easier.

(Message edited by terrys1980 on April 27, 2010)
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Jlnance
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 - 12:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for the info. Brake pulsing drives me nuts, and I know how to cure it, but all my cures are temporary.

It will be interesting to see how your new setup works. It sounds like a great deal if it ends up fixing the problem for good.

One thing I'm curious about. The floating rotor was billed as the key to making the perimeter braking system work for Buell. It seems their new system does not have a floating rotor, and works even better. Did they explain this in any of the emails you exchanged?
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Arcticktm
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 - 12:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Per EBR, the 6mm rotor is intended for folks that race on shorter, tighter, tracks with low (by race standards) speeds. The extra thickness (vs. stock 5mm) helps as a heat sink/storage. I assume this means it helps average out your brake temps better, since race pads only work well when hot.

The finned 5mm rotor was for racers that either race at higher speeds, where the "fins" can come into play, or just don't want the extra weight of the 6mm rotor. They said the finned rotor only helps (cooling wise) at higher race speeds.

EBR also says that their rotor mounting hardware should be better (or at least not worse) than stock for anyone, not just racers. It replaces the springs with belleville washers (for thermal expansion), and uses copper washers on both sides. They state it will transfer heat better. I agree in theory, but wonder if it is enough to even measure/notice since it is just 6 small areas on a large rotor area.

Anyway, based on EBR feedback, the 6mm rotor seemed to match my needs better. I live in the mountains, so I do mostly sporty rides with lower speeds and tight twisties. Lots of on/off with the brakes.

Note that the 5mm finned is still the same thickness as stock, so I doubt it would warp easier. I am skeptical that many of us could warp any of these rotors in street use.
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Arcticktm
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 - 12:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just to avoid any mis-interpretation, here is the exact text from email I received from EBR Tech Support:

"Dear Jim,

The 6mm rotor has more heat storage capacity, so typically works well on shorter tracks with lower speeds. The 5mm finned has more capabilities for heat dissipation, and it's advantage is most pronounced at higher speeds. Either one works with stock brake pads, or stock pad replacements.

The brake mounting kit is substantially better than stock in all conditions. There is a lot of misinformation about floating rotors, and in fact the only reason for floating mounting is to allow the brake disc to expand when hot without distorting. The new mounting easily allows growth and shrink from heat cycling, yet keeps the rotor from rattling around and keeps light contact between the rotor and wheel at all times, which improves heat dissipation and reduces distortion. The kit is absolutely the biggest improvement for the buck on these brake systems.

Thank you,
Tech Support
Erik Buell Racing"
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Alchemy
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 - 05:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well $42 for alternative mounting hardware is probably worth some testing. I welcome anyone who checks it out and reports back.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 - 06:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I tried the "recovery" suggestions from the link in the other thread on the way home, and it did seem to help. Like 5 hard stops from 60 mph or so, but not letting the bike go below 10 mph or so.

I just did it until I could feel the brakes (lyndall golds) really start to fade.

Then just run without the front for a long time to let it cool.

Seemed to really help. Don't know if it will last or not.
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Brakes2late
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 - 11:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I installed the kit and it reduced my pulsing by about 50%. Cleaning the rotor helps too but only for a short time. I do 95% of my riding on the freeway between Ventura and Santa Barbara and use my brakes maybe 10 times the whole ride. The improvement from cleaning only lasts one trip and the pulsing worsens.
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Brakes2late
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Oh yeah. Stock pads but the pulsing started shortly after putting a new set on in conjunction with a new front tire.
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Ourdee
Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 - 01:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here is my weird look at the front brake system. I think of the stock brakes as smearing sludge on the rotor. I try to keep my sludge smeared evenly. If I'm not being goofy, I try to engage and disengage my front brake smoothly. No hard grabs or quick releases. I always try to be off the front brake before the bike quits rolling. I use the rear brake for the last few feet of the stop and to hold it at the light. I don't worry about lumpy sludge on the rear brake and I don't want any more rear than the factory amount. To me stopping is all about that front brake being smooth.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 - 03:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Another datapoint... last nights fix "stuck" and the brakes felt better then ever this morning. I could probably detect a pulsing if I was trying to find it, but if I wasn't looking for it it wouldn't bother me.

I'll see if it comes back later... but the fix survived at least one heat cycle, and it would be easy to repeat.
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Arcticktm
Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 10:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I measured the old (stock) rotor yesterday. It was on a surface plate with a height gauge and a calibrated 0.0005" dial indicator (not on the bike). It was checked by a guy and equipment that is used to measure turbocharger parts everyday, so I trust the numbers.

Total flatness/runout was 0.011"

This seemed quite high to me and explained my pulsing, until I looked at my '06 SM last night.
SM claims that lateral runout limit is 0.0248", more than twice what my rotor measured. That seems REALLY high!
I am thinking that the SM number is intended to be measured on the bike (so the mounting lugs runout and wheel tolerances will have effect), but I would think the stock spring mounted system would make this effect small.

Internet research seems to show that anything over a few thousandths of an inch is a lot, and mine is beyond that.

I wish I had measured the new Erik Buell Racing rotor before installing it.

Anyway, I am ready to say that rotor warpage was definitely a factor on my pulsing issue. Just not sure if it was the only factor yet.

The guy at Stop Tech may think he was never seen a warped brake rotor, but keep in mind he is talking about cars with 4 dual discs that are very rigid, and our ZTL rotor is much larger, thinner, and has not internal support.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 12:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I take back my "all clear" message. It did help a lot, but when you get below 5 mph, it's still a mess.

Oh well, looks like I get to support Erik Buell Racing! : )
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Arcticktm
Posted on Monday, May 03, 2010 - 01:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Did about 700 miles of NC mountains this past weekend, and still all good on the new front brake rotor/pads/mounting.

As mentioned before, it still takes a lot of lever travel for the brakes to engage (not a mushy lever, just extra travel), but they engage smoothly and progressively.
I adjusted the lever position out an extra notch to compensate. I had previously had it at the setting where the lever was closest to the bar.
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Firstbatch
Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2010 - 07:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Artickm, a suggestion to reduce the lever travel is to re-bleed the brakes and instead of gravity bleeding use a pump style bleeder and force the fluid "up" from the caliper to the master cylinder and resevoir.

Does not take much to get an air bubble trapped in the system and it will show up in increased lever travel and less than firm feel.
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Brakes2late
Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Installed my Erik Buell Racing rotor this weekend. Not much time to ride but so far the pulsing is completely gone. Still on the OEM pads for now. I can't believe how immune I got to the how bad the pulsing actually was! Now it's smooth as silk...
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Adrian_8
Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2010 - 04:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I too just installed the 6mm rotor with the solid mounting kit and some new EBC HH sintered pads. It has been a long time since I have had a totally smooth braking feel...sweeeet....Hope it lasts...
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Brakes2late
Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2010 - 05:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Over 3K miles on my Erik Buell Racing rotor without any sign of pulsing...
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Dfishman
Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2010 - 11:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I am in the process of replacing my rotor with the new 6mm one & new style hardware.The rotor is machined in the area where the hardware is.Which side of the rotor is out & which is in?I feel like the side that is machined is out but I'm not sure.Help is appreciated.Thanks
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Brakes2late
Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2010 - 02:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The side that is milled out (has a step up to the actual rotor surface)faces out. The side that the surface is flush with the rotor faces in.
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Dfishman
Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2010 - 04:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks.I listened to Nik on XB forum & he said it faced in.I installed it & came in the house & checked my e-mail.Erik Buell Racing tech said to face the machined surface out.So.............back out to the shop & switch it around.Now I got great,smooth brakes.
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Augustus
Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 12:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just did the 6mm rotor and Lydall Gold brake job. A world of improvement from my pulsing grabby stockers. I ride about 100 miles hwy to work round trip and have plenty of city stop and go traffic as well.

I have about 500 miles and this combination so far is giving a great feel and consistent progression as they are applied.

I like them.
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Jasonb
Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 04:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have the same bike as Arcticktm and same pulsing. After reading, I bought a new 6mm rotor from Erik Buell Racing. I've been trying to figure out the pad issue though. Has anyone tried Hawk Brake Pads? Here's a link

http://tinyurl.com/36tv9cl

(Message edited by jasonb on December 30, 2010)
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Danair
Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 04:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Tried everything. Put disc on granite surface plate and sure enough it would rock. New kit and found that the holes that hold the springs were full of dust corrosion etc. Cleaned with a bore brush and really paid attention to all mounting surfaces. I tried flexing the old rotor before I started and it was obvious it wasn't floating freely or uniformly. Prep work made new install float as designed. If its binding on the drive bushings, it will eventually take its toll.
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Brakes2late
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 06:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Resurrecting this one... My EBR 6mm rotor started pulsing. It seems to have a thin spot about the distance of one mounting bolt to the next, that is .003" thinner then the rest of the rotor. (or maybe the rest has .003" of build up?). In either case it's pulsing like mad.
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