| Author |
Message |
    
Aaron
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 11:20 pm: | 
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2004 Buell XB12R
Bone stock |
Peter
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 12:51 am: |
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What is it like to ride stock? |
Aaron
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 09:23 am: |
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I don't know, I didn't ride it You can sure see in the chart where that valve in the exhaust system transitions to fill in the hole in the torque curve, and again to give top end. |
Jmartz
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 12:40 pm: |
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Very impressive. Nearly 90 HP out-of-the-box! Once the peculiarities of this engine are discovered there is great potential for lots more HP. |
Jmartz
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 12:42 pm: |
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The torque seems a little lower than in the past for an engine of the same size. Could this be exup valve related? |
Spike
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 12:45 pm: |
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89.8hp? Jeez, couldn't you fudge that last .2 so we could claim 90hp at the wheel? 
How many miles were on the bike?
Mike Luddy, Jr.
Ray Price HD/Buell
'99 Cyclone (sold)
'04 XB12R Firebolt (coming soon!)
'94 Turbo Miata |
Thunderbox
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 12:47 pm: |
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Has anyone ever seen a flater torque curve than this XB12R. Must be nice to drive. Can't hardley wait for the 2004 Buell test drive. Hope it isn't as successfull for them as the last one was Ha Ha. |
Thunderbox
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 12:56 pm: |
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Soon we will see some electronics to custom adjust that exhaust valve so we can cater our bike to produce the HP or Torque, right where we want it. Great Day For Motor Racing. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 07:39 pm: |
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Give the bike 3500 miles and test again Aaron. You should see "a few more" horse power. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 11:55 pm: |
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Thanks for posting the dyno Aaron. Got an air/fuel plot to go with that? What was red line, looks like the run stopped shy of the limiter. |
Steve_a
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 01:02 am: |
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If you average the Sport Rider curve with 99 horsepower and Aaron's curve above, you'd get one that looked much like the curve I was shown from Buell's Dynojet. I look forward to strapping our test bike to a dyno -- and the Anon above is right -- most Harley and Buell engines don't have the rings fully seated until several thousand miles have past. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 11:36 am: |
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Blake ... I didn't do the pull, Brian did, I was busy and wasn't paying that much attention, but I believe he took an a/f, I'll check later and repost if he did. Yeah, I noticed that on the limiter too, not sure what that was all about. Is it possible the ECM was entering it's protect-the-bike-from-the-idiot-owner mode? Remember, these are corrected results, actual rear wheel horsepower is substantially lower up here. So this pull was happening relatively slowly, and perhaps we spent too much time above the threshold rpm. Guess we could drop it down a gear and try again. I don't even know what gear he did the pull in. Hey, I'm busy with my own stuff!
The bike only had 123 miles and therefore we only did 2 pulls, but they were essentially identical results.
Brian swears up and down that the SAE correction is cheating us out of a few hp due to our elevation.He's seen bikes I've tuned up here on my dyno that subsequently showed more in Shreveport on his, and we've also seen bikes that were tested on the shop's dyno in Shreveport and then again up here that showed less up here. He may be right, I don't know.
Really, on this bike, it wasn't the top number I found so interesting, it was that torque curve and how it shows the plainly visible transitions of the valve inside the muffler. Pretty cool if you ask me. I've spent a lot of time making and testing exhaust systems and being able to change the length of the system on the fly like that would really open up some possibilities. With a single length system, you kind of have a choice between a lot of power over a narrow range (and fighting reversions) or somewhat less power over a wide range.
edited by Aaron on August 22, 2003 |
Aaron
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 12:16 am: |
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Here's another bone stock XB12R we dyno'ed today. This one had 120 miles on it.
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Aaron
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 12:19 am: |
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Here's a 1200 kitted XB9 we tuned for a customer today (I forgot to ask if it was okay to post this, so I'll withhold his name).
The throttle body was bored and the bike uses the Nallin Racing/Force big bore pipe and Power Commander package. Stock cams. |
Dbensavage
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 02:55 pm: |
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Hey that was my XB12R dyno sheet. Will be back soon for the big bore kit!!! Thanks for putting my bike right on the dyno with no appointment!! |
Kaudette
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 08:59 am: |
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Hello,
Looking to get more mid range punch out of an XB9R, I was wondering what the options would be (note already have race ECM, pipe & K&N.).
I was thinking Nallin Heads (stage 2 or 3) but would like to avoid having to change the efi system as I'm located in Europe and most of the shops here don't cater to custom jobs - bolt-on heads seem like a nice route but I'd like to know if they alone would provide the mid range punch I'm looking for (effectively pull the torque curve forward from 5500rpm in the stock XB9 to ~4G) - I can do most of the "basic" wrenching but would prefer to avoid the "complicated" eg - innards - stuff.
If the heads won't do it, any suggestions? I've thought the 1050 kit as I haven't found a shop that will bore the cylinders for the 1200 kit but 60 cc more doesn't really add up to much... Oh, and btw - the 1200 is not an option as I find it butt ugly with the new colors & wheels - makes me think of a 65 year old flasher + with the new pipe we're even less able than before to tinker with the thing!!!
Thanks for your suggestions and congrats for the great site & content!
Ken |
Aaron
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 09:51 am: |
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Only the pipe & ecm are different between these three pulls:
The race pipe clearly has a "reversion" going on below about 4500rpm. In other words, it's pushing back on the intake charge during overlap, instead of drawing through and pulling on the intake. That kills cylinder fill and results in a torque dip.
The best ports in the world won't fix that, in fact they may make it worse. Likewise, additional displacement isn't likely to help. You're not filling the displacement you already have, more won't do you any good.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to sell you a head porting job and a 1050 kit, but it does me no good to have disappointed customers. The ports and the engine size are not what's constraining the engine in the rpm range you're concerned with. |
Shazam
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 01:16 pm: |
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Aaron, I would be happy to be a "reference" for your shop or your services (not that you need one!)........this bike has become a beast in your and Brian's capable hands..... |
Kaudette
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 02:15 pm: |
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Aaron,
Thanks for the info - I have an HSA aftermarket pipe (German manufacturer) which is quite a bit more free flowing than either the stock or Buell race pipe. I get the picture with the reversion issue - I guess the best bet is to get my bike on a dyno and see where the torque maps out across the RPM...
Assuming that the bottom end is pretty open (like the Force deal) how would one go about determining if the porting job and or bore kit would make best (any) sense? My guess is that I can't fit the Force pipe over here in Europe as I'd get stopped by the police at every street corner - in effect I'm limited to ~92 decibels @ 3800 rpm - otherwise a nice fine and refitting the original pipe...
In end, the ideal torque / power band I'd like to get would be something like this...
Max torque around 4G - flat from there (hopefully in the 75 ft-pds area and 90 rwhp at the top with at least 70 by 5500.... I guess something like the post above (from 7/11) but 10% less - although 85 ft-lbs at 4200 must be nice!!! |
Aaron
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:03 pm: |
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Thanks Sam ... mind if I put your sheet on our website?
Kaudette, my mistake, I misinterpreted your words and thought you were referring to the race kit pipe. I have no idea what your pipe is doing. Assuming it's drawing where it should be, yes, head porting and more displacement will add power, no question. Do you have a current dyno sheet I can look at? |
Kaudette
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:17 pm: |
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Currently looking for a dyno over here - will try to get a run and post it onto this site. For the moment it is "seat of pants" guesswork but the engine with the HSA pipe is stronger than stock across the range really kicking in at 4.5G. Ideally I'd like to pull this "kick" forward by 500 to 1G, but worse case would be to have more across the board. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 07:43 am: |
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Aaron... any pipes out there that don't have that torque dip up front but that don't have the "make the neighbors ears bleed" sound like I am assuming the force has?
I rode a factory race kitted XB9S, and thought the sound was about perfect, but of course would like to see that torque dip filled. I am probably about 6 months to a year from getting the aforementioned 9s, but that does not stop me from planning  I would even happily give away a little up top to get a little more pull down low with the factory race kit sound level.
Geesh. Sounds like I just want an XB12s. Which I do, but am looking at the $6000 range, not the $10000 range. |
Shazam
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 09:11 am: |
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By all means Aaron! |
Spike
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 07:12 pm: |
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Dyno'ed my XB12R today. It made 89.6hp and 72.7ft-lbs. I don't have a picture of chart to post, but the lines look the same as all the other stock XB12 dynos. I'm satisfied with the numbers but I was hoping to seem more on a properly broken-in bike with ~1000 miles on it. The runs were made in 5th gear with the ~200lb operator sitting on the bike. The A/F ratio hovered around 14:1 on the low end and gradually went to about 13:1 up top.
To those that are familiar with dyno operation, does the weather have an affect on the readings?
Mike L.
'04 XB12R Firebolt (1015 miles) |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 08:29 pm: |
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Yes. What correction factor did the tech apply?
At 1,000 miles, your engine still has a lot of loosening up to do. She should gain even more RWHP through 2,500 mile mark. Was the bike good and hot or did the tech run it with still cold engine oil and transmission lube. That can make a big difference in the dyno results. Having a 200 lb rider sitting on the bike would also hurt the dyno results. Low tire pressure hurts dyno results. The 5th gear run would give optimum results though.
Ask them to send you a copy of the data file. You can get a copy of teh software offered by Dynojet that will allow you to view and print your own dyno runs. I am assuming your bike was tested on a dynojet. Otherwise, no dice. |
Kaudette
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 07:38 am: |
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There is a thread on the XBoard inquiring about the XB9 Race ECM on a 12. I ended up ponying up the dough to buy a 12 and after a thousand miles or so am looking for some perf upgrades.
One thing I had in mind was putting the XB9 race ECM (I have one from my last bike) on the 12 to up the redline to 7500. This would be done with the K&N and aftermarket exhaust (before getting into bigger pieces) and was wondering what the implications would be - I understand on the big bore deals you manage to run the 9 ECM with the 1200 kit so my thought is that perhaps this could work as well on the 12?
Any thoughts or issues you have seen with the 1200 bore jobs done to-date? |
Rick_a
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 01:30 pm: |
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I know that regularly hitting 7500 RPM with a motor having that boreXstroke wouldn't be healthy. Your piston speed would be 4766 feet per minute which is a bit above a good level for street reliability. I think upping revs to that kind of level is something better left to trackbikes and weekend warriors. I know a guy who's set his M2's redline at 8000 rpm...I'm curious to know how long it'd last there. I have no first hand experience in that matter but know some general guidelines. |
Kaudette
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 02:30 pm: |
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The goal is not to go hitting the limiter on a daily basis but to have some overrun ability before 6800 so as to have more flexibility to shift without forcing the tranny (which it doesn't like above 5G)
On a parallel note, to also know if the 12 will run with a 9 Race ECM as I have one on hand - I prefer to be relatively certain to not do serious harm to the motor before running - therefore the questions on the board. |
Rick_a
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 03:15 pm: |
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I put the Buell on the Dyno at school today. With some aircleaner mods and jetting changes I upped the power a bit. I don't have a scanner right now so all I've got is the numbers. I got 79hp and 80 ft-lbs. Removing the aircleaner and having some one hold on a velocity stack gave me 83hp and 82ft-lbs. Just no aircleaner got a couple hp less and the same torque. My A/F is right around 13:1 right across the board. Not bad for a Lightning head S1 and seat of the pants tuning. An instructor has a '97 and could only push around 80 from his doing the same. He said he needed to do some more tuning 
If my rear header didn't have a huge dent I probably would've done better. It silenced all the "Buells are for girls" guys. I still need much more power! Right now it's all midrange.
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Rick_a
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 02:02 pm: |
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Some carb tuning today...82hp and 81 ft-lbs. I wish I could tweak the timing but I'm out of time. Ah well. Now I just need to save some $$ for the good stuff. |
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