| Author |
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Turk
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 10:15 am: | 
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Aptbldr - Depends on the information shared. Is it proprietary information? Since it's published in service manuals, I'd say not. I'll put this is clearer terms. One person buys a new CD, copies the data and posts it to the internet for all to download for free. No consent from the band or record company. Lost sales to both. Is this okay? Just because the technology exists to do it, doesn't make it ethical. |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 01:38 pm: |
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Is it proprietary information? Since it's published in service manuals, I'd say not.
Publishing in a copywrited service manual is proprietary. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 01:03 am: |
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Meaning of going sour as intended by that thread is broken components because of the tinkering - wrong fuel values etc. |
Id073897
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 02:47 am: |
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In this case most assumably not copyrights, but database rights apply, which is a matter complex at will.
For starters: http://www.iusmentis.com/databases/ |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 03:55 pm: |
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One person buys a new CD, copies the data and posts it to the internet for all to download for free. No consent from the band or record company. Lost sales to both. Is this okay? Just because the technology exists to do it, doesn't make it ethical.
Chalk and cheese.
To compare something that the world uses on a daily basis with something that is totally user specific is no real comparison.
I can download the driver updates for the latest Quad Core video card from anywhere.
If I do not have that card it is of no use to me.
The same applies to what the above person is doing for this community - he is in fact storing base maps as a library for all to use for free.
Much like in the spirit of ECMSPY I say. |
Turk
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 12:42 pm: |
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Actually I wasn't ever referring to Gunter in terms of distributing maps that aren't his. And it's not chalk and cheese. Question - Does Quad Core allow their drivers to be distributed for free? Have they given permission to people to distribute those drivers? Has Buell opened up their maps to be distributed for free? Has the person distributing them gotten permission from Buell to do so?
I'm going to put this very simply. There is someone (NOT Gunter to my knowledge) who is offering to distribute Buell's race ECM maps without permission from Buell. What that person does with their own maps is their business but I'm not talking about his maps. I'm talking about the Buell maps. They don't belong to him. That is stealing.
Gunter built a tool for tuning. That's a good thing. Someone has taken it upon themselves to use that tool to steal and distribute something that doesn't belong to them. That's a bad thing, and not Gunter's fault. Like Gunter had said once before - I'll paraphrase - it's not the tool that's the problem, it's how it's applied. |
Turk
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 12:51 pm: |
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OK, simple question. Someone buys a muffler and high flow air filter and wants to run the race ecm in their bike. Instead of going to the dealership and purchasing it, they download from someone else's website (not authorized by Buell) the maps that Buell has developed and is currently selling through their dealer network (by way of selling an ecm with those maps in it) and load them into their bike. The tool used to do this is irrelevant. Right or wrong? Is it stealing from Buell or not? |
Aptbldr
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 08:27 pm: |
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The ECM is a device for sale.
Maps are complex specifications for an ECM device.
It seems physical specifications like torque values and spark gaps are NOT property.
However, 'magic box' specifications like fuel timing and spark timing ARE property?
Genuine victims of irresponsible map sharing could be regional shops who sell dyno-tuning.
(Doubt HD-Buell specifies or markets race kits for their direct return-on-investment.) |
Turk
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 09:09 pm: |
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Well, if what Court says is correct, and it makes sense, then it's all property.
Genuine victims of irresponsible map sharing could be regional shops who sell dyno-tuning.
But Buell is different?
(Doubt HD-Buell specifies or markets race kits for their direct return-on-investment.)
Bottom line is that they sell it. Their motivations are irrelevant. A simple question was posed above. What's your answer? |
Id073897
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 03:07 am: |
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Bottom line is that they sell it.
Copyrights are not bound to sold goods only, as these apply to Ralf's and my software too, although given away for free.
This discussion is fruitless, as it doesn't matter what the users think which rights they have, but only which rights will be granted by the rights owners or the law.
(And the rights owner is very probably not BMC.) |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 08:04 am: |
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The answer to your question is as I stated when i first suggested that he go to the site in question.
As he was asking for the BASE MAP to start again.
Nothing else. |
Turk
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 06:33 pm: |
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Doesn't matter. Here's the bottom line - it's not his data to share. It's proprietary information and his distributing it is inappropriate. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 08:24 pm: |
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So by your definition someone who enters a library which is free to use and already owns the book is not allowed to read that book?
Also if you have bought a book and then give it to someone to read then that is also wrong?
He is not selling the base maps which are only of use to those who have already bought a bike.
I have not commented on the business side of his activities and will not be commenting on them here.
He is providing a service to those who have already purchased an item by storing a copy of it electronically for their use in case things go wrong - the same thing any owner can do if they so wish.
This is the same as the the person who is allowed to make a backup copy of a CD or DVD they have purchased - this person is merely storing this information for their later use.
If the base maps were for sale then the argument you pose may well be valid. As it stands the storing and provision of this electronic media actually causes a cost to the provider for which no fee is asked.
Quite an admirable gesture. |
Turk
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 10:34 am: |
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No by my definition, you can loan out that book to someone else to read (and you can loan out your ECM if you want to), you just can't take it to Kinko's and give them a copy.
This is the same as the the person who is allowed to make a backup copy of a CD or DVD they have purchased - this person is merely storing this information for their later use.
No it's not. This person is storing data for someone else's use later on - i.e. distributing it.
If the base maps were for sale then the argument you pose may well be valid.
They are. They come in a new ECM or a dealer can hook up digital tech (which they had to buy) and download them.
But as Gunter pointed out above, whether or not they are for sale does not affect whether or not it's protected information. My comment above saying that Buell sells it was only to point out that if they're selling it, I doubt they gave someone else permission to give it away. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 08:15 pm: |
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So does the dealer charge for a reflash?
If yes then perhaps you are right it is taking business away from the dealer.
If no then it is costing the dealer.
As for the semantics of storing versus distributing - I will let more qualified persons than I comment.
The point of the issue is - this person has made available a resource that can only be of use to those who have already purchased the item in its entirety at his own expense.
The base information is not for sale and therefore he is not profiting by storing it on his website.
Depending on the dealership he is either costing or saving them time.
To my mind the greater good in this situation with regards the BASE map is being served.
For those who see only black and white this may be black to you.
For those who do not it may be on the whiter side of the equation. |
Turk
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 12:47 pm: |
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A dealer would most likely charge for the download unless it was warranty work (and warranty work involving a new flash after someone has tinkered with their ECM is a whole other topic).
The point of the issue is - this person has made available a resource that can only be of use to those who have already purchased the item in its entirety at his own expense.
This person is also making available something that someone has not purchased (the race ECM) as shown when following the link I posted above.
The base information is not for sale and therefore he is not profiting by storing it on his website.
His profit or lack thereof doesn't matter. He's giving away something that doesn't belong to him. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 04:37 pm: |
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Most likely?
So you are surmising.
I have agreed that more than the base info is available.
This is not what I suggested he obtain and I never will.
The man was looking for a BASE map and I informed him where he could get it. |
Turk
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 11:06 pm: |
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Not surmising, but it would be at the dealer's discretion. But since the dealer is authorized to sell that service, it is truly at their discretion.
There really isn't a difference between the base maps and the race ecm in this discussion. Buell owns all of that data and dealers are the only ones authorized to distribute it. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 11:47 pm: |
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Very real difference.
Race ECM's and their data are for sale as an accessory for the motorcycle whereas the base ECM and data is supplied as a part of the motorcycle. |
Turk
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 12:01 pm: |
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Tires are also supplied as part of the motorcycle yet if someone punctures one their not entitled to a free replacement. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 11:27 pm: |
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How about we agree to disagree?
This has been entertaining however life must go on. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 01:16 pm: |
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Whether free of charge or otherwise, whether with laudable intent or otherwise, distributing Buell's ECM maps without permission from Buell is unethical. |
Turk
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 02:54 pm: |
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Thank you. |
Turk
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 02:56 pm: |
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Bombardier, yes it has been entertaining. Frustrating at times, but still fun. |
Xoptimizedrsx
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 07:10 am: |
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yes there is backup data avail. the key is its only good to you is you already bought a bike. without owning one its no use to you.
to clarify. you can not burn race ecms to a stock ecm. the ones i posted were sent to me for backup by certain people. this way if they messed up there ecm. they have a restoring point back to where they started.
what one does with the data is there decision. the ones posted again are backup files from people who have already purchased the bike. there backup files it tells what year it fits and ecm thats all.
mike |
Turk
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 09:41 pm: |
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Still not your data to distribute, doesn't matter how you try to spin it. Simply put, you lack integrity. |
Xoptimizedrsx
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 10:20 pm: |
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why are you so into about what I do?
dont you have something else you can be doing.
yes its a gray zone. as it states its personal files from paying people who sent them to me to post for them as backup if they ever needed to start over on a item they already paid to have.
what others do with it is not my responsibility.
as far as tuning goes. if your tuning a bike with a stock ecm well your no better than i am.
yes i have a dyno and many tools. as before i know more than i post.
i have race bikes all over i have done.
who's race bikes use you?
where do you work?
bring me your xb i'll fix it. hahahaha
get some plain screaming eagle cams drop them in and set them up. yes they work fine just dont use the timing marks. make your own marks. if you can.
i'll take you on xb to xb my tune against yours. if you kick my butt i'll leave badweb forever. if not you leave anything i do alone forever and publicly say sorry you do know what your doing.
you may want to call a life line to see what i really know. a few sponsors here know what i have and can do. plus a few big name race teams were surprised this last test track sessions on the bikes they were racing. you are so going to loose.
bring it on or back off.
i have the dyno.
total stock engine, ecm, any pipe you choose it. stock bike be a 2002 to 2009 xb to be re-tuned.
its ecm work against ecm work.
the tune must be ridden then retested after a 10 mile ride. this ensures its locked in. if it returns with a cel you loose automatically. then re dyno ran.
power then wins as we will do power and time to speed. just like its racing. i shoot for speed. its not all about big numbers always.
ecmspy or directlink. pick your program
i'll take ecmspy.
see yah
brummm
bring it or back off my case. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 06:47 am: |
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Copies of files for purposes of data backup would not be available to the general public. Do the right thing and remove any/all proprietary Buell ECM data from your site. Anything less is unethical. |
Xoptimizedrsx
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 08:49 pm: |
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let me grow balls and ask henry myself.
if he says its ok i'll leave it there. if he says no it will go.
if you dont know henry then you dont know buell.
even if he says dont post it i can host you files you just have to know how to access it.
call it cyber backup. you can email my for it if you need it.
thats all i can do if they say not to list it. the way i have now.
i should know this week.
mike
(Message edited by xoptimizedrsx on January 15, 2009) |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 02:54 am: |
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Call it what you like but I am with Xopti on this.
No I do not have his products.
It seems totally warped that to be acceptable all he has to do is take a stock fuel map change one cell and call it something else.
No logic there folks. |
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