| Author | Message | ||
     FrankO (Fpostow97s3) |
Also some info/pics if possible on how and where you installed the sensor. Great information as we all go through rejetting periodically as we change our setups. Did I say this info is very timely? Thanks in advance. | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Franck and Mike : I posted some photos of available gauges during the Temporary BBS period (around October 8 or 9), that you can check. Peter from the Netherlands also mention some web sites where an electronician amateur can find the wiring needed to make its own gauge. Personally, I went for the Autometer Phantom gauge which has a white face like the Buell dashes, and I bought the mounting cup available for it (usual disclaimer applies about Autometer and me...). I bought it through Summit Racing (www.summit-racing.com). Part number is 5775 if I remember well. Price was around 50 bucks + shipping for the gauge alone. 20 bucks for the cup (don't remember the part number though...). If you do a web search for Autometer, Halmeter, Cyberdyne and Intellitronix, you'll find a bunch of web sites where these air/fuel gauges are available. It's a pretty common accessory for car racing. I installed the sensor against the left mirror ; I made a small L-bracket in aluminum to fix the gauge cup collar to the clutch lever shaft. The wiring is the simplest possible : one wire to +12v, one wire to ground, and the last wire attached to the O2 sensor wire. That's it ! Regarding the O2 sensor, I bought one for an Opel, but any sensor would be fine as long as the thread is the same as the thread in the Buell header (I think it is a M18 x 1.5). All the O2 sensors provide an output from 0 to 1 volt (O being the leanest conditions and 1 being the richest conditions, stoechiometric being at 0.5 v). Be careful : some O2 sensors are provided with a heater inside and the corresponding wiring. It allows to keep its temperature constant, and so the reading. It's not so important if you just want to know if your Buell is too rich or too lean, because the temperature has no effect on the reading at stoechiometric values (14.7/1 air/fuel ratio). Hope this helps. Good hunting and enjoy this very useful gadget ! | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
The reference of the Autometer gauge cup for Phantom gauges is 3203 in chrome and 3204 in black. You can see them at the following url : http://www.martelbros.com/autometer/pg59.html Caution : the gauge is made primarily for automotive applications. Therefore on my Cyclone, I filled all the spaces around the gauge cup with silicone stuff for bathrooms. I've not yet ridden the bike with the gauge under rain but I hope that it'll be enough to keep it dry. | ||
| FrankO (Fpostow97s3) |
I just finished re-jetting. The changes I made are as follows: 195 main replaced 185. reset idle mixture to 2 1/2 turns from full in, but I didn't mark where it was set at prior - my bad. I also changed my ignition curve from 2 to 4 on an SE race module with single fire ignition to eliminate pinging. I have not yet been able to dyno tune it as I took a nail in my rear tire on the way up to the local HD dealer. The dyno run should be next week but I have a couple of observations and questions to prep the setup. The motor definitly gained some kick from the jet change SOP. The bike now stalls more frequently and the idle adjustment is not working as it should. I also noticed that on startup it revs much higher right off the bat and I need to opperate the enrichner in a much narrower range. Pinging is gone. My question is which direction to go on the idle mixture screw. Any comments are welcome and thanks in advance. | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Franck : if you still have the 42 pilot jet instead of a 45, you may need to unscrew more the mixture screw. Until you get an A/F gauge (...), try to borrow somewhere a CO analyser, put in the exhaust end. This is the easiest and most precise way to tune your idle mixture. Usually, the best CO percentage is around 3%. Otherwise, just do it empirically. Screw in the mixture screw until the engine starts to slow down seriously, then unscrew it slowly until the engine revs more ; set the idle again to about 1000 rpm and continue to unscrew until the engine starts to behave a bit erratic. The good tuning should be obtained by screwing in again the screw just a little... Aaargh, I definitely prefer when I see numbers somewhere !!! On an A/F gauge or on a CO analyser... :-)) | ||
| FrankO (Fpostow97s3) |
Thanks Jerome, I do have the 45 pilot in and I hope to use a CO analyser next week. My guess was I went a little to far with the mixture screw I just wish I had measured where it was set prior. | ||
| dave sonstein (Cyclown) |
FRANKO - - - It doesn't really matter where the idle mixture WAS (mine was only 3/4 turn out) before I started the retune procedures similar to yours. I'm set up with::::: 190 main jet /45 slow jet mixture@ 21/2 turns out /n65c needle with .012 washer /slide hole drilled to .110 /slight bevel to slide leading edge /stock air box gutted with filter secured with aluminum strip secured with original bolts that I drilled the heads to accomodate safety wire...... The M2 is definately improved. HENRIK - - - excellent illustration of throttle cable safetying. It looks real aircraft quality! | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
N65C update : I've installed this new needle yesterday evening. Didn't have the right tool to measure accurately its diameter along the needle and to compare it with the N0KK OEM needle. By eyes it looks very slightly biefier everywhere between the taper and the constant diameter part. The taper is 1.6mm diameter just like the NOKK one. The main difference appears to be the length : the N65C needle is 1.3mm longer. On my A/F ratio gauge, I didn't notice a huge difference with stock. My 1/2 and full throttle riding is still excellent (stoechiometric at 1/2 and slightly rich at WOT), my 1/4 throttle is nearly stoechiometric now whereas it was too rich before, and my 1/8 throttle is still too rich. But so far it seems to be the best setting I can get on my modified 00 Cyclone. I'v not put any washer below the needle ; this would make the bike richer everywhere between 1/8 and 1/2 throttle, and this is not desired so far. Next step will be to test the bike with 15 disks in the SuperTrapp IDS instead of 13 disks right now. This is supposed to lean the mixture but I want to see the facts on the A/F gauge... | ||
| Boz (Boz) |
Jerome, Where did you mount the sensor for your a/f guage? | ||
| Boz (Boz) |
Jerome, My 99 M2 has no place in the header to screw in a sensor.Did you have your pipe modified or does the European M2 already have a place to put the sensor? | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Boz : I replaced the OEM european M2 header (which has no thread for the sensor) with the OEM american header. The former is the 2" diameter and the latter is the 2.5". It is provided with the thread in the rear tube because it is the same reference as for the X1 and S3 fuel-injected models. I suppose (could be confirmed by American owners of 99 and 00 Cyclone) that the american M2 have this header thread fitted with a plug right out of the factory. So I didn't need to do any welding. If you have an european 2" header, you can still manage to drill a hole in the rear tube and weld there a thread for the O2 sensor. | ||
| Christopher Goodrich (Chrisg) |
Jerome, My '00 American M2 does not have the thread and plug. I would assume '99s don't either, since they came with mild steel headers. | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Chris and Boz : strange indeed... When I decided to replace the OEM european 2" header, I ordered the 2.5" header to my Buell dealer, specifying that I needed one for a M2 ; he looked in the M2 part manual and ordered it straight on. A day later, I had intense thinking about how to tune my carb (...) and I thought that an O2 sensor would be the best tool. I realized that a X1 header would already provide me with the thread for the sensor, so I went again to see my Buell dealer and to make instead an order for a X1 header. He looked in his part manual for the X1, and bingo, it was exactly the same reference as the one that I ordered for the M2 ! Does it mean that the 2.5" headers that we can order here in Europe are different from the headers originally fitted to X1 or M2 in the US of A ? The reference of my 2.5" header is 65247-99Y... Anyway, if you want to play with an O2 sensor and A/F gauge as I do now, you'll need either to buy a new or used X1 or S3 header, or to weld a thread in the rear tube of your current header. | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Aaron : I found this on a japanese web site on Buells ; comparison between the OEM N0KK needle and the N65A. I don't know what the "C" means compared to the "A" on the Keihin needle code. Is the N65C needle leaner around the taper end compared with the N65A ?  Anyway, this graph suggests that that the N0KK needle is leaner than the N65A everywhere except around the taper end. I'd love to find comparable graphs with other Keihin CV carb needles... I'm afraid that in order to lean out my 1/8 throttle now, I'd need to rework the cutaway... Or start again from zero with a brand-new Mikuni HSR42 ! :-) | ||
| FrankO (Fpostow97s3) |
I'm posting my dyno run from today in the appropriate dyno subheading. Overall an improved torque curve and a 2 hp pick up from last spring. Thanks to everyone for your help and direction. | ||
| Aaron Wilson (Aaron) |
Jerome: interesting graph! I'd sure like to see one for an N65C. That's not really what I saw the day I took my calipers after both the NOKK and the N65C, though. The NOKK was a little richer except near the straight portion (smaller values of "L" above), where the N65C was a little richer. Like I said, I believe that end is low rpm, and the other end (larger values of "L" above) is more the mid range rpm. But I could be wrong. See ya, AW | ||
| J.V. (Rdrage) |
Hello, quick question.... What exactly is a "Gutted Airbox" and what affect does it have?? I have A 2000 X-1 | ||
| Mark Schroeder (Marks3tbillet) |
Want to eliminate the stock airbox on my 2000 S3T. Have some questions: 1. Will the H-D screaming eagle air cleaner fit my throttle body? I know it will hit my right knee so not sure I want to do that. 2. Does anyone make a different air cleaner like the race air cleaner without a carbon fiber cover? (metal) 3. Will an S2 angle type air cleaner fit my throttle body? If so, will the S2 right fairing lower fit too so I can get rid of the perpetually cracking new lower? Any other thoughts? I want to have the oval style air cleaner preferably. Thanks for any help. | ||
| buelliedan |
Mark S, The simple answer to your question is no. None of those ideas will work by just a simple bolt on. Of course you can make them work with some fabrication. Depends on your abilities and resources available. Dan 99S3 00X1 | ||
| Mark De Giorgio (Mark_in_ireland) |
 Mine has had the width reduced by about 1" and then powder coated black. I'm 6' tall 33" leg and my knee just touches it if I'm sitting close to the tank otherwise its okay. Looks better than most conversions I've seen also. | ||
| BigHairyRalph (Ralph) |
I want to go back a month or so and talk some more about intake length. It was said (but I can't remember who by) the length was measured from carb mouth to valve. Okay, dandy. But, what if you use a Force style air filter? The fuel is still being mixed in the same place but the area where the air is being picked up is four or six inches further away. Does that change the equation? | ||
| Darryl Salmon (Sparky) |
As copied from the lost Badweb tech archives: -------------- By DAve (Dave_2) on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 03:24 pm: I just ordered the parts for the "throttle cable clamp" as they appear in the Blast parts breakdown. It bonds the throttle cables to the cable bracket (bucket). I think they're the same for the S3, M2, & X1. Some folks have used safety wire and Court gave a very good step-by-step procedure on it. The part numbers I ordered are: C0129.L Clamp Throttle Cable $1.65 C0130.L Clamp, Throttle Cable Front $2.90 AN0G604.2CZ Screw $.30 -------------- | ||
| John Sachs (Johnsachs) |
Ralph, Intake tract length is measured from the inside lower edge of the valve seat to the air inlet entrance,i.e.flared out part of a velocity stack.A curved inlet,like the Force, may interfere with fuel standoff making the current pulse formulas incorrect.On a Harley engine you will find that you would have to use a very long stack.Also,you are only tuning for a narrow r.p.m.range.I have the formula if you need it. | ||
| BigHairyRalph (Ralph) |
I would appreciate that formula John. I know it won't do me any good in real life but it's fun to play with. It just occured to me the other day that the Force, with its tubular build, would act as a new air inlet, very much like a velocity stack. From there, just have to wonder what effect the bend has on air. But hey, figure the air/fuel mix is already turning ninety degress, what more harm could there be in turning the air another ninety before it mixes. | ||
| J.V. (Rdrage) |
Anybody want to help me out with a "gutted airbox" explanation? Re:10-30-00 0106am Thanks again | ||
| Sean Pepper (Rocketman) |
John, what's this ? A formula that works ? Is it because it's one of your own and not Mr Denish's ? On the dyno board, you sarcastically suggested the formula I used was gospel, when infact, it wasn't my formula at all, it was taken from Denish's tuning manual, but none the less, you were implying it could be "open to debate" and therefore, could be wrong, seeing as how stock T storm heads with less flow than my heads were making 100 HP. I dunno, maybe the dyno wasn't dialled in correctly when those stock TS heads were up for it ! I'll lay out some small points of info, so everyone can compare apples to apples. Influencing Factors for dynos and flow benches: Was the dyno or flowbench calibrated for atmospheric cond. before testing ? F.B.-test at how many inches? Leakage factor ? Dyno -elevation relative to sea level. F.B. -temp. difference of air in and out. Dyno -how close to the engine, or heat source, is the temp. prope ? F.B. -what was on the port during test, i.e. carb and manifold, inlet guide, ex. pipe ? Size and shapes of inlet guides and pipes makes a difference. Dyno -Air pressure in rear tire, body weight of the operator, tension on the rear straps, and was the operator sitting on the bike or standing next to it while making a pull ? What gear or gears were used ? Or have I got this wrong, these parameters don't apply to flowbenches or dyno's that you use, just the one's Rocket's Buell was tested on ! Well, it must be the same for the formulas too ! Yours are good working formulas presumably, but mine can't possibly be ! Just making my point, AGAIN ! Rocket in England | ||
| mikej (Mikej) |
J.V. If you remove the outer cover from a stock M2 (other models are probably similar) you will see a long tube connecting a box containing the air filter to the carb venturi intake. Basically, gutting the airbox refers to removing the internal tube, replacing the carb intake ring with a Sportster venturi ring, and then doing a variety of other things to support the air filter. Some people will replace the stock filter with a K&N model. The tech section on the ATB web site has a pretty good explanation of what to do. There used to be some good pics and details posted here which may have been restored (I haven't checked). | ||
| John Sachs (Johnsachs) |
Rocket, Take your heads to an unbiased shop,near you,with a flow bench,and have them flow tested.Then this whole issue can be settled! If everything is handled with the above parameters,then you will always have accurate repeatability,and a good method of comparison. John | ||
| John Sachs (Johnsachs) |
Ralph, Most tract tuning is done with the 2nd.pulse,because it's strongest. 1100X.96X half in. cam duration,divide the sum of those 3 numbers by the r.p.m.you want to optimize the tract to. P.S.I hope Rocket doesn't beat me up too much with this formula. | ||
| clay dart (Supermod) |
Ralph- As far as Ive heard, air doesnt like to turn corners. A while ago, i wanted to see my left front wheel in a race car. Nance Racing made injector stacks at the time so i asked re: flow restrictions on different bent stacks. Cant recall exact #s, but the farther from straight, the greater the loss of volume/velocity. We tilted the motor instead, left stacks straight. | ||
| Peter Moltmann (Peter) |
John, I'm just trying to learn and follow your formula. What is 'half in. cam duration'? Is that half total degrees open? PPiA | ||
| Aaron Wilson (Aaron) |
Clay: you raced USAC Super Modifieds? Those are neat cars. I had a couple friends who raced'em, one of which did a motor swap with my car, when SCCA all but banned big blocks (raised our weights and made us run restrictor plates). He went on to kick ••• with that L88. Davey Hamilton drove for him for awhile. I know they ran the Copper World Classic a few times and did real well. The small block I ended up with won a few races, too, before it blew. See ya, AW | ||
| Aaron Wilson (Aaron) |
Clay: <snip> double post bug bit me! See ya, AW | ||
| John Sachs (Johnsachs) |
Peter, 1/2 intake cam duration is 1/2 the total duration of the lobe,i.e.T-Storm cams in.duration=256 degrees divide by 2=128.Put 128 in the formula,X.96,X1100,=97152.Divide that by r.p.m. you want to tune for,i.e.5000 and you would see it takes a tract length of 19.43".This is for the strongest pulse,which is the 2nd. | ||
| Peter Moltmann (Peter) |
John, Thank you, but doesn't 128 x 0.96 x 1100 = 135168? Or am I reading it wrong......... PPiA | ||
| John Sachs (Johnsachs) |
Peter, You're right.135168 divided by 5000 = 27.03" My mistake. | ||
| clay dart (Supermod) |
Aaron- Raced limiteds (55% lh wteght, 360 2-bbl,2200 lb) for 3 years, and supers for 2 years on and off. They are real expensive and time consuming to race. Age got to me and i quit in 1996. Never got to the stage whewe i could go toe to toe w/ the good guys, but those cars are a handfull( fun,tho). Really nothing quite like them for a saturday nite racer. We race small blocks on the west coast. I see more big blocks in the mountain and eastern states. Cant turn the big blocks as high. Raced w/ Scott Backman from Colorado, saw some other Colorado folks in Phoenix. Never raced the mile myself, built engines for Mark Ekberg tho. Sure was fun but requires dedication. Yep, I loved it, still do. Which car were you working with? Were the big blocks winning over the small blocks? Let me know ,im a super addict. Thanks, Clay | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Aaron : update on Keihin needles. I got some info from Keihin regarding OEM jet needles. Still no numbers for the N65C, but some for the N65B (...). Straight diameter is 2.75mm (N0KK is 2.77mm) and taper diameter is 2.00mm (N0KK is 1.75mm). If I understand well the Keihin needle code, the N65"C" should have a slightly bigger taper diameter than the N65"B", somewhere between 1.75 and 2.00mm. So you were right : the N65C should be slightly richer than the stock N0KK needle at 1/8-1/4 throttle, and slightly leaner at 1/2-3/4 throttle. I also got some info regarding other OEM Keihin needle jets for Harleys. If one wants to lean the mixture at 1/8-1/4 throttle, compared with the N0KK OEM needle, only two other needles offer this : the N72Y (HD reference 27176-90) with a straight diameter of 2.78mm and the N86P (HD reference 27280-92) with a straight diameter of 2.80mm. Both have the same taper diameter as the N0KK, so 1/2-3/4 throttle should not be affected (provided that the L1 length is identical, but I didn't get these numbers). I'll order both and give them a try. I'll keep you posted on my air/fuel ratio reading. | ||
| Aaron Wilson (Aaron) |
Jerome: you are rapidly becoming the board's CV carb expert!!! Keep up the good work. Clay: The car owner's name is Pat Russell, the team is called PAWLS racing (Pat, Al, Wayne, Larry, Steve). They race out of Boise, ID, it's been more than 10 years since I lived there and I lost touch a long time ago. Davey Hamilton is from Boise, and racing with this team was one of his stepping stones to IRL. They went a ton faster with that L88. It made something like 850 horsepower when they got done with it (it wasn't making nearly that in my car). Turned sideways with the right side valve cover essentially level. Man, what a car. I've never driven one but it sure looked like a rocket. I know they hold (or held) several track records with it. I remember reading about them after I moved to CO, in Circle Track, doing real well in Phoenix, but I can't remember the details. What do those cars weigh, anyhow? A couple thousand? 850 horsepower will move 2000 lbs in a hurry. Outlaw cars are what, 750hp & 1800 lbs. last time I checked, they're total rockets, too. See ya, AW (600hp 2700lb vette, slow by comparison!)  | ||
| N. Garretson - Sportster.org LSR BBS Adm (Lsr_bbs) |
CV Needles. Heck, I've got a whole assortment of the things, maybe I'll sit down this weekend w/ a mic and do specs for all that I've got, put 'em in a spreadsheet for comparo. Neil Garretson X0.5 |
