| Author | Message | ||
     Doyle Whiting (Doyle) |
Just finished doing the carb. work on my 2000 M2. Did the #45 slow jet, N65C needle, drilled out the air mixture plug. I've forgot what the recommended Main Jet size is. Mine has a #200. Also, any recommendation on spark plugs? Thanks in advance. Doyle | ||
| Doyle Whiting (Doyle) |
Just finished doing the carb. work on my 2000 M2. Did the #45 slow jet, N65C needle, drilled out the air mixture plug. I've forgot what the recommended Main Jet size is. Mine has a #200. Also, any recommendation on spark plugs? Thanks in advance. Doyle | ||
| Thomas Bass (Tomx1) |
I own a 2000 X1 and want to do away with the stock air box. You know that big gawdy black plastic thing. I see where you can buy little fiberglass or carbon fibre strips to mount where it comes off, but what do I do about a new air cleaner. I've never seen a X1 without the stock air box. I want to be able to see that beautiful V-Twin and also would like to improve performance at the same time. Is this possible? Please give me some suggestions. | ||
| mikej (Mikej) |
Dual carbs on an otherwise stock '00 M2: Wants: A) to keep reasonable fuel economy while simply cruising; B) reliability (stop laughing, I'm serious); C) ability to leap tall mountains without a jet change (ride from sea level to 9,000+' and back to sea level on a more or less cross country trip). Don't wants: 1) more maintenance; 2) increased stress on the engine, or in other words I don't want to reduce the engine life by much; 3) top end problems due to over-rich cylinder washing (which is what I think happened to a dual-quad Camaro I had once, fun while it lasted though). I'm thinking of trying the Kuryachin(sp?) dual carb intake unless I can find something better. Don't know yet about the plumbing or cabling. Haven't decided on an exhaust yet. Maybe I should just stay with a single carb, but I want to play with the idea some anyway. I've also misplaced the web page link to those guys with the dual-carb at the Homecoming, if I find it again I'll post it here unless someone beats me to it. Maybe someone could just summarize the results of going dual-carb with an exhaust change included so I can decide how foolish this idea might be. | ||
| Brentx1 (Brentx1) |
Tom, I have eliminated the air box on my X1 and installed a force sidewinder in it's place. It is a little pricey but it really shows off the engine. I also relocated the horn behind the windscreen. Brent 99 X1 | ||
| Peter Moltmann (Peter) |
mikej, Now you are pushing my buttons. Please keep me up-to-date if you find anything. This is a link to a dual carb S2 site. PPiA | ||
| Ross Bolding (Rbold) |
I am having trouble locating the discussion on improving the performance of the standard cv carb on my 1999 M3 Cyclone. More so for smooth running than extra grunt. Can anyone assist?? Ross | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Air/fuel ratio update : first a small reminder for those who would not have followed. I've installed on my 00 M2 Cyclone an O2 sensor in the exhaust header coupled to an Autometer Phantom air/fuel ratio gauge. This allows me to record real-time how the carb tuning is on my bike, whatever the rpm, throttle opening, etc... With a 2.5" header, SuperTrapp IDS with 13 disks, 45 pilot jet, 2.5 turns of the mixture screw, drilled vacuum hole to 1/8", 195 OEM main jet and OEM airbox, I had a too lean bike at 1/4 and 1/2 throttle opening, whereas the idle and wide open throttle regime were just fine (slightly rich, as requested for max power at WOT). Now, I've installed a Big Airblow air cleaner from R&R Customizing in Germany. It is essentially the same air cleaner as the Force Big Daddy, but with a constant inside radius of the inlet (restricted on the Force). Big surprise !!! I expected that with a more free-flowing air cleaner, I'll get even leaner conditions everywhere. Wrong ! I get richer conditions everywhere !!! A clear demonstration here that carb tuning is not a straightforward business, and that pre-conditioned thinking may be bad... So I'm gonna try soon the N65C needle in replacement of the OEM one, as well as slightly smaller main jets (I have an OEM 195 and I'll try 190 and 185). I'll keep you posted. | ||
| Fidel (Doncasto) |
Ross: The BWB had a data loss problem that unfortunately took out all of our Tech topics a little over a week ago. The usual mods for improving the CV 40 are: 1)Change slow jet to 45 2)Change fast jet to 195 (although 185 works better for some bikes in Colorado - best setup is with a dyno) 3)Carefully remove plug over idle mixture screw and reset to 2 1/2 turns from full in. 4)Replace stock needle with an N65C (Sportster part) needle. Some also shim the needle a little higher. There has also been some dicussion about modifying the slide but since I have no experience with that I will defer to someone that does. I used the Dynojet Thunderslide Kit with some success, although it is much more expensive than doing the individual mods noted above and may not provide enough additional performance to justify the extra expense. Hope this helps, Fidel | ||
| Idzerda (Hans) |
Jerome, that is fully unexpected: richer mixture with a free flowing inlet. Maybe: The "big daddy" is not more free flowing and the Helmholtz resonator is an aerodynamic wonderpiece. Maybe: False wiring of your gauge. Maybe: The automatic air pression compensation has something to do with it and undercompensates when the difference between the outside air pressure and air pressure inside the filter is too small. You have set much people thinking, I suppose. Good job. Eager for next post. Hans. | ||
| Zero_the_Hero (Zero_the_hero) |
Jerome, same thing happened to me. I installed a V&H and my bike runs richer, before the change my plugs were dead on, after installing the muffler I could not believe how much darker the plugs were. I swapped out the main jet and reset the idle mixture screw and all is fine. I asked about this and why it would be and no one responded, you guys thought I was crazy I guess. I did read somewhere that after changing the filter and exhaust that they did not have to touch the carb because the jetting was spot on, before that changes the bike was running lean, I think I saw this in a magazine. zth | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Hans : the wiring of my O2 sensor and its behaviour are fine. When I shut down the throttle, it switches back and forth between lean and rich, just as expected. At idle, where only the pilot jet count, I keep the same air/fuel ratio as before. And the fact that I run now too rich at WOT is attested by the observation that the bike just cough when I slightly shut down the throttle after WOT. Yes, it is entirely unexpected and I look forward to finding a reasonable explanation. I can't believe that the Big Airblow is more restrictive than the OEM breadbox. We speak here of a huge K&N filter which has an area comparable to the Buell Race filter. The snorkel of the Big Airblow is shorter than the OEM snorkel. In the next few days, I'll test the 190 and 185 main jets and see if it has a significant effect not only at WOT but also at 1/4 and 1/2 throttle. Otherwise I'll have to find the right needle (not sure that the N65C is the answer to these symptoms) or I'll have to add some disks to my SuperTrapp, which is supposed to lean the mixture... I mean this is theory, wonder now about practice, after having observed what I've observed... :-) | ||
| Henrik (Henrik) |
Safety wiring throttle cables: These are not Courts original pictures (they're of my S2) but still shows the trick: First picture from the top, showing each cable wired individually with a loop starting around the cable itself, and with the free ends secured to the throttle cable bracket on the carb (right side of bike is in the top of the picture):  This image is taken from the left side of the bike:  Henrik | ||
| Jim Armstrong (Jima4media) |
Dynojet mail list news... NEW MAPS NOW AVAILABLE!!! In a continuing effort to provide our customers with the most up-to-date information and best performing fuel maps, we have now added new maps for the Buell Power Commanders that are not included on the CD. Here are the maps description and their location on the POWERCOMMANDER.COM web site: http://www.powercommander.com/maps/buells/m803-012.exe 2000 or later ECU, Force exhaust without baffle, Forcewinder air box with K&N air filter http://www.powercommander.com/maps/buells/m803-012S.exe 2000 or later ECU, Force exhaust without baffle, Forcewinder air box with K&N air filter and Dynojet High Performance Oxygen sensor http://www.powercommander.com/maps/buells/m803-013.exe Race Kit ECU, Force pipe without baffle, Stock air box with K&N Filter http://www.powercommander.com/maps/buells/m803-013s.exe Race Kit ECU, Force pipe without baffle, Stock air box with K&N Filter and Dynojet High Performance Oxygen Sensor. Jim X-2.5 | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Hans : the more I think about it, the more I suspect that you are right when incriminating the VOES about the rich symptoms I get now on my Cyclone with free-flowing exhaust and air cleaner. Putting a more free-flowing air cleaner should in principle decrease the vacuum (i.e. increase the pressure) relative to standard conditions, for a given throttle opening, load and rpm. This would favor the closed circuit of the VOES and thus the retarded advance curve, implying richer conditions (see the discussion between Carlos, Aaron, Ricky and others on the General discussion board of October 9). I may try later on to put a manual switch between the VOES wire and ground, so that I can manually switch between the advanced and retarded curves under different riding conditions and see the effect on my air/fuel ratio. Who said that the Buell is a very simple bike ?! :-) And I've not yet played with the suspensions... Just kidding. Less crazy Buell owners would not care about the symptoms I care about right now, but I'm one of these crazy mechanical amateurs who want to get always the best from their bike. ;-) | ||
| Sean Pepper (Rocketman) |
Increasing or decreasing the velocity and same with pressure, will change the overall effect of the mixture wont it ? By changing your air filter one way or the other, might in theory give you the required result, but in practice, it may well be the complete opposite. Mmmmm, but I'm no expert, but is the VOES switch gonna do that ? I am thinking it is something much more scientific and very subtle !!!!! Rocket in England | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Rocket : carburetion is quite simple in principle, when just considering what happens in the carb alone. The depression generated by the engine pumps gas through the jets. It also rise or lower the slide and the needle. I think there that pressure is a far more important driving force on air/fuel ratio than gas velocity. Problem is : by changing the pressure under given riding conditions (i.e. by putting a more free-flowing exhaust and/or air cleaner), we change the pressure in the inlet pipe and thus we change the reading of the VOES, which in return affects the advance curve. The advance curve will affect the efficiency of air/fuel burning in the combustion chamber, and thus the air/fuel ratio reading that I get in the exhaust gases with my O2 sensor. So the lean/rich conditions is not just a matter of jet size, needle profile, etc, but combination of exhaust / air cleaner, advance curve, atmospheric pressure, ambiant temperature, and the age of the Captain. :-) | ||
| Idzerda (Hans) |
Jerome, The VOES was not considered. Only the mechanical adjustment for altitude: Gas is pushed through the main jet by the athmospheric pressure in the float chamber. The amount of gas is dependent of the needle in the piston. At higher altitude the lower air pressure pushes less gas through the jet AND the needle closes the jet more because the piston does not rise so much. Gives leaner micture at higher altitude, just what you need. Now you decreased with a freeer flowing airfilter filter the pressure difference outside and inside the filter. The pressure inside the filter is greater now and raises the needle more and enriches the mixture. The same athmosheric pressure pushes the gas throug the jet. It could be so simple if you forget that raising the piston decreases the airspeed in the venturi and so the vacuum that sucks the gas out of the jet and also the force wich sucks the piston up. Ha: BUELL`s DON`T SUCK, so my simple explanation can withstand the critics. But more serious: That feedback by the piston adjusting the venturi AND the needle is indeed a subtle and balanced contraption wich you are now slowly to discover. That VOES thing makes it still more complicated and may not become overlooked IMHO. It would be interesting to KNOW what the piston does when a free flowing airfilter is placed. As modification I heard about a weaker spring placed on the piston. That would work the wrong way after your measurements. Each time more ?? !!! Hans. Waiting for the next issue in this continuing story. | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Hans : OK, I misunderstood your previous remark and thought you mentioned the VOES. Actually, I think we are both right. Changing the air cleaner and getting a more free-flow of air into the carb has most probably an effect on what you say (pressure difference between the venturi and the volume above the slide) and on the VOES, which essentially measures the vacuum in the intake manifold and modifies the advance curve accordingly. What about getting a fuel-injected X1 at the end ?! :-))) Anyway, the result is that my bike is now too rich. The first easy test will be to put smaller main jets (by 5 to 10 points). The second one will be to test another needle (N65C). The third will be to play with the number of disks of my SuperTrapp IDS. The fourth will be to adjust the preset vacuum for the VOES switch. And after all this, I may have a Cyclone climbing to trees ! :-) | ||
| Stephen Miranda (Stevem) |
Yeeha, the UPS man commeth! Got home to find a new Force air cleaner for my X-1. No longer will I look longingly at S-1's. This is what a Buell should look like! Naked ROCKS! Now that I have that out of my system, I have a question. The Force elbow has a port in the mounting flange that matches up with a fourth hole in the spacer, gaskets, and stock support plate, which will vent unfiltered air into the intake. Is this a left-over from carbed models? I just KNOW this should be blocked. But before I go rotating the spacer and drilling a new mounting hole to accomplish this...well, I've been wrong before. Can any one confirm this for me? | ||
| Zero_the_Hero (Zero_the_hero) |
Steve, I don't think it lets unfiltered air in unlike the poorly designed airboxes do, that hole is suppose to be there, it vents inside the elbow so there is not going to be any dirty air getting in. I think that is the vacuum hole for the slide. I got the force for my M2 because I noticed that the cover of the airbox did not seal against the back plate of the air box, I bet there are alot of buells out there sucking unfiltered air. All you guys with the stock box should LOOK where the cover is suppose to seal with the back plate, there was a pretty big gap on mine at the front lower corner, it was not real noticeable, one night I had my shop light out looking at something around it and I saw the gap, I made sure it was mounted right, it was, so for the first 2,000 miles my bike was sucking unfiltered air, I am real picky about stuff like that. So I paid $200 for something that I really didn't want, I guess I could have sillyconed it! later, zth | ||
| Zero_the_Hero (Zero_the_hero) |
duh, i forgot you don't have a carb! looks like you have the elbow for carb models. sorry, zth | ||
| Stephen Miranda (Stevem) |
Called Force. They said it is a float bowl vent. Said they patterned the kit off of a '99 model and the vent opened into the throttle body on that bike rendering it defunct. On my bike, a '00, it comes out on the outside of the throttle body and must be plugged. Any one using this kit should watch for this. If you bolt it up as it comes, you could have a good air leak. Jerome, just a thought regarding K&N's. I had one on an ATV, and found that a little too much oil on the filter made a big difference on how much air it flowed. | ||
| clay dart (Supermod) |
Can anyone give me the H-D part# for the n-65 carb needle? My local h-d parts guy cant locate it by that # . Thanks , Clay Dart | ||
| Aaron Wilson (Aaron) |
Clay: 27094-98. Look here for lots of other CV part numbers. AW | ||
| Philip A. Brewer (Fastback69) |
Will the Force pipe and filter fit inside of the stock air box? | ||
| Fidel (Doncasto) |
Phil: Yes. At least it does on my 1998 S3T. Fidel | ||
| Aaron Wilson (Aaron) |
oops, I meant 27094-88 AW | ||
| Peter Moltmann (Peter) |
Deleted (Aaron, you just beat me. I think we'd better ask Don to change the QRD at the top of the page too.) | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Jet needle : in my search to lean my carburetion in the 1/8 to 3/4 throttle range, I'd like to test different jet needles available for Keihin CV40 carbs. On the Nightrider web site, I found the following list : Reference Name 27175-90 N72R 27176-90 (CA Only) 27178-90 N72S 27179-90 (CA Only) 27184-92 N86F 27186-92 N86E 27280-92 (CA Only) This list running from the "richest" to the "leanest" needle. The ref 27094-88 corresponding to the well-known N65C needle for 1988 1200 Sportster is shown at the end, but it is not said where is should be in the rich/lean rank. Can anybody let me know ? There should be a code for Keihin needle name, corresponding to the taper diameter, length of constant diameter, and root diameter. Anyone would can say a bit more ? And what is the name of the stock needle on 00 M2 Cyclone ? Oh, by the way, following a comment I had off-line, I'd like to specify that the rich mixture on my Cyclone currently shows up at the Autometer Air/Fuel ratio gauge, not much on plug readings. My plugs are quite nice, light brown center and very slightly dark outside. If I didn't have the A/F gauge, I would say that my Cyclone carb tuning is just fine, except a too big main jet which can easily be noticed at wide open throttle because of the poor top speed and the coughing when slightly shutting off the throttle from WOT... I suspect that one can see a too rich mixture on plugs when it is really something like a 10/1 or 11/1 ratio. When it is - like in my case - something like a 12/1 to be put back to 13/1 or 14/1, I suppose that the plug reading is then of little use. | ||
| Steve Ellingham (Dart) |
Anybody got the web address for Force. I thought it was www.useforce.com I guess I better stop thinking, 'cause it don't work. | ||
| BigHairyRalph (Ralph) |
Yup, that's the address. Hasn't worked for me lately either. | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Steve and Ralph : try that one : http//www.r-r-customizing.de This German company sells slightly modified version of the Sidewinder, Big Daddy and Racewinder from Force, price is comparable, but BIG DIFFERENCE : Thomas Voll, the boss of R&R Customizing, answers to his customers... And he is fast in processing orders. Only problem for you guys in the USA : shipping fees from Germany, custom taxes, and payment only by bank transfer. I've tried for over a month to get a Racewinder from Force Motor Products, and never got an answer to my numerous faxes and e-mails. Got in touch with Thomas Voll, and after my bank made the transfer to his bank, the product was in my mailbox within 2 days ! | ||
| Jim Armstrong (Jima4media) |
Force changed their URL to this - http://www.forcemotorproduct.com/index2.html I got that from their webmaster Marci Depew Jim X-2.5 | ||
| Charley (Charley) |
Has anyone got some back to back comparison done with the powercommander > race module ? I like to know if it works like advertised. | ||
| clay dart (Supermod) |
Aaron- Thanks for the info on carb mods last week. as it turned out, i bought jets for a stock carb and when i took it apart, found the pervious owner had used a dynojet kit, so we drilled the 190 to a 195, seems to work better. Need to dyno the bike. Ill keep you posted. Clay Dart | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Carburetion update : I've put a 185 main jet in replacement of the stock 195 on my 00 Cyclone and it works much much better. I can definitely recommend this setting to anyone running a SuperTrapp IDS with 13 disks together with 2.5" header and aftermarket free-flowing air cleaner, at near sea level (I live at 200m altitude). 1/2 throttle is just fine now on my air/fuel ratio gauge, and wide open throttle is just slightly rich, as desired for max power. The bike revs wonderfully, the power is back and it's gorgeous. Unbelievable how much bad jetting can affect the performance of such engine !! 1/8 and 1/4 throttle are still a bit too rich and I look forward to changing this with a new jet needle. I'm still interested to hear from one of you how works the Keihin needle code. What's the name of the OEM needle on a 00 Cyclone ? How one recognizes from the needle code that the new needle is leaner than stock at partial throttle opening ? | ||
| Aaron Wilson (Aaron) |
Jerome, Congrats on finding a way to jet the carb accurately, that's more than most of us do. I'm impressed! The stock needle is labeled "NOKK", at least over here in the colonies. If you measure it carefully and compare it to an N65C, you'll see that the NOKK is a little richer (smaller) in most places, but up near where the taper ends, it's a little leaner. I *believe* the upper end of the taper is lower rpm, the lower end is mid range, if my understanding of the carb is correct. The N65C was original equipment on the XLH1200 before the CV had an accelerator pump, the theory is that's why it's a tad richer right off idle. Try it and see ... hey, you have a system for measuring exactly what it does ... and report back to us. See ya, AW | ||
| Jerome Chappellaz (Jerome) |
Aaron : thanks for your remarks ! Looks like the N65C may not help to lean my 1/8 and 1/4 throttle though... Anyway, it should be available at my Buell dealer shop tomorrow and I may have a chance to test it this weekend. I'll keep you in touch about the A/F ratio readings. I'm definitely convinced now about the usefulness of this A/F gauge. It saves me a lot of dyno runs and it has the big advantage over the dyno to give "real" information on my bike running on the road, with wind, temperature changes, etc... And last by not least, it's a pretty gadget that you can watch when riding on a boring road ! :-)) | ||
| mikej (Mikej) |
Jerome, Do you have a photo or any contact purchase info on your A/F gauge? I think you or others may have posted this in the past, so sorry if I'm being redundant, but it sounds like a neat and handy item to have. |
