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Buell Forum » Knowledge Vault (tech, parts, apparel, & accessories topics) » Troubleshooting (Poor Starting/Running/Handling/Ride Issues) » Archive through March 20, 2008 » Grim prognosis for the XB... (I need advice) » Archive through November 09, 2007

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Author Message   Interex2050 Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 09:50 pm:        Well I stopped by the shop today, and had the tech take my 2004 XB12R for a spin around the block... My fears have been realized, the tech concluded that my engine is on its last legs. I have a feeling that several years of pinging due to the Los Angeles heat/traffic has finally taken its toll... So my question(s) is as such: Is it reasonable for me to feel the need to contact BMC directly to discuss this issue (my bike is out of warranty at this point)? I mean these engines are supposed to last more then 15,000 miles, right? And it is not like I neglect/abuse the engine (or the motorcycle as a whole) I do all the maintenance on/before they are scheduled (for instance oil/filter is changed every 2.5k). Would BMC be interested in my bike as a guinea pig, to dissect it and see what went wrong? I think that the 1125R would be more well suited to Los Angeles traffic, due to its similar power curve as well as the liquid cooling (no more pinging?)... Even though I do not believe in credit, at this point I am disparate enough to take out a loan to buy the 1125R (I need something that will last more then 15,000 miles and WONT ping itself to death)... My schedule is hectic and I cannot have the engine blow up on me, as I do not have any other means of getting around. Bah, I am frustrated and tired of worrying... I will miss my XB though, it is one HELL of a bike; Which is why I am willing to purchase the 1125R without ever even seeing one... But if I don't act fast I will end up with a beautifully sculpted Italian frame/swingarm with a boat anchor bolted underneath... As well as who know what havok the lack of transportation would cause with work and school. What should I do? If I contact BMC what should I say? Please help me. Best, Peter (Message edited by interex2050 on November 07, 2007)   Buellinachinashop Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 09:56 pm:        I have a couple of questions that may help alot of us who ride XB's. 1) What exactly did the tech say? What's going bad? 2) By "pinging", what do you mean? My bike has just under 10k and I've put 4 of that on this season and never noticed a pinging. I run 93 octane.   Interex2050 Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:06 pm:        1) The tech was fairly vague... but implied that it could very well be crank/con-rod and/or valve damage (maybe more). Basically said that repairs would cost quite a pretty penny. 2) Pinging, well if the I am sitting/crawling through traffic for more then 5-10 minutes on an average day (75-80 degrees) upon acceleration (even gentle) the air-fuel mixture pre-detonates and works against the momentum of the flywheel... In other words loss of power and a terrible clanking sound. Some more things to note: I have tried a lot of things in an effort to solve this issue... I have taken it to various dealers and they either pretend that nothing is wrong or just shug... I have also run 110 octane gasoline which does kill the pinging for the most part (unless it is a really hot day) I have had the timing checked. I have tried different oils, various gasoline brands, different riding techniques... Oh also if I am in traffic at night, the headers have a mild red glow to them. Intake/exhaust have both been checked for leaks. (Message edited by interex2050 on November 07, 2007)   Glitch Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:14 pm:        Did a tech diagnose pinging before? Is any of this documented? A call to BMC can't hurt, just be polite, and honest. No telling what might happen. Best of luck, and keep us in the loop.   Interex2050 Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:23 pm:        One of the invoices does mention pinging and all it says ("customer state bike pings")... I think that was one of the shoulder shrugging instances... This was at 6772 miles. I usually mention it every time the dealer gets my bike, but apparently it rarely makes it to the invoice. I will definitely give Buell a call tomorrow... I hold nothing against them, and I trust that they will be able to help me in some way or form. (Message edited by interex2050 on November 07, 2007)   Blake Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:09 pm:        Sounds like complete BS to me.   Interex2050 Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:49 pm:        I hope BMC will think the same thing...   Interex2050 Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:23 am:        More notes: The only "modifications" the bike has are frame pucks, and traction grips...   Hexangler Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:51 am:        We only get 91 octane juice here in California. Hex   Oldog Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:59 am:        What Blake said + 4 a. your Xb engine has MORE cooling fins these shed heat and amplify noises generated b. failing rods rapping will not come and go. c. failing valves / valve train same. What condition is the Fan?   Interex2050 Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 01:41 am:        -I am more worried about the sounds coming from deeper within the engine (bottom end?)... -Then there is a top end "tapping" which occurs upon any type acceleration regardless of temperature (although this may be an ignition timing issue, even though that was recently checked) The noises are always there, just much more so then ever before... and they are intensifying at a weekly rate. -Then there is this other noise which is cyclical in nature, a series of clicks/crunches every couple of seconds. This one has been driving me nuts, because I cannot figure out what is spinning at that rate... The fan is rather healthy, usually pretty busy after a ride and during a commute... I was hoping that I was just being paranoid, but I am not the only one who was/is distraught by the sounds my engine was making. What I should do is get an audio clip of it running.   Irideabuell Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 06:58 am:        Quite honestly my xB12s does the same thing here in FL when I've sat at a light or in traffic for any length of time. Once I get going again and give it gas you hear a loud "knocking/pinging" that goes away as the motor cools. I have 24,000 miles on mine and it pulled strong this morning at 5:00 AM on the way in and it was about 50 (brrrr).   Spike Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 07:37 am:        I may have missed it, but have you checked the engine sprocket nut? There was a service bulletin released a while back stating that the correct torque for that nut had been increased by ~50ft-lbs. When I was working at a dealer we had a rash of '04 Sportsters come in making a terrible rattling/knocking sound from the bottom end due to the engine sprocket nut working itself loose. This may not be the case on yours, but it's worth checking it if you haven't already.   Brumbear Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 07:47 am:        Your valve guides are bad is what it sounds like. I would pull the heads and have them done do a compression test first if it is within reason there is your problem.   Glitch Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 07:51 am:        Spike took the words right off my keyboard! Brumbear has a good point as well.   Ironken Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 08:57 am:        I may be deaf and dumb, but, I ride mine regularly in 115 degree heat here in the Cal-Ariz-Nev desert and have not had an iota of trouble other than the fan runs a bunch.   Al_lighton Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 09:48 am:        What Spike said...when it comes loose, it sounds very bad, like the bottom end is starting to grenade. And it will be if it doesn't get tightened.   Interex2050 Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:12 am:        I have told them to check the torque setting before before, I even brought them the print out... Although I doubt they did anything about it then, but they must have re-torqued when they replaced my stator (12153 Miles)... I will stop by the Glendale shop today and see what they say this time, and see if I can get an appointment so they can do it quickly. Then another interesting thing comes up, it appears as though my bike pings a lot more then anyone elses... So if they do fix the noises the the pinging will still be there, and what is going wrong now will come up again sooner or later... Al, If worst comes to worst... Would you mind if I stopped by and have you get a good listen? (Message edited by interex2050 on November 08, 2007)   Reepicheep Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:51 pm:        Tell them "next time you check the timing, I would prefer you actually check the timing". (or maybe I am being cynical) Seems like you ought to be able to track down the crunchy noise. I'd be checking 5th gear drive assembly, transmission, stator / clutch / primary chain / tensioner, valves, cams in that order. All easy to do by a home mechanic, though it could take some time.   Wolfridgerider Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 01:42 pm:        http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/148030.html   Sparky Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 02:23 pm:        I'd offer to sell you my XB9R and you could save about $8000 over an 1125R and get a dependable bike, having logged approx 50k miles riding in LA traffic. Seriously, it sounds like you have an undiagnosed mechanical problem. The headers are never supposed to glow red (unless you're racing, right Slaughter?). But taking it to a dealer to check for an intake/exhaust leak or timing issue won't ensure that they actually fix anything unless the problem is really obvious. If the condition is marginal or intermittant, they may not experience what you see is the problem especially if the tech is not well versed with Buell EFI. I found out I have to be real specific about what I want done when dealing with service people. In other words, if I suspect there is an intake leak, I pay them to replace the gaskets; if I think the timing is off causing it to ping, I pay them to set the timing, say 1 or 2 degrees retarded. Do you see where I'm going with this?   Brumbear Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 05:54 pm:        This may be way off but this is eaither a valve problem timing included or is the valve maybe not opening or partially opening in the exhaust or is ther an exhaust flow problem more apt heat retensionI must be honest I was only responding to the pinging in my earlier post   Interex2050 Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 06:42 pm:        Being cynical is a tempting thought, but I really wouldn't want someone who has reason to dislike me to do anything with my bike... Sparky, That is a very tempting offer... Depending on how things unravel, I may have to take you up on that. I can see how that technique would work at Bartel's... as they are so stubborn to do ANYTHING, even if they are asked to do so. I did end up stopping by Glendale and had the the Buell tech have a listen. To my surprise, he was actually distraught by the sounds... (he is the one that usually disregards the sounds as normal) He did mention that there is most likely a valve train issue. As well as the possibility of something not being right with the bottom end... Both the Buell tech and the "service guy" agreed that I should give Buell Customer service a call, and discuss it with them. 15000 is too soon... I will have to do that tomorrow though, as it is a bit late at this point   Bake Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 07:44 pm:        Loose primaries make quite a racket! 15k should be nothing to that engine, I'd find another shop....... well actually I'd tear into it myself.   Interex2050 Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 08:12 pm:        Indeed, but that was taken care of during the 15000 mile service... There are very few Buell dealers in Los Angeles... (which is strange being a large city) I know of two: -Bartel's: I have NOTHING good to say about them... In fact I could ramble about my dislike about them for a while... -Glendale: Sometimes great sometimes terrible, depends on their work load. The downside its a bit of a trip... I wish I had the time/space to dig in myself... my neighbors hate it when a I work on a project because the only place I have is the driveway. I have actually gotten threats about having the police called on me, because supposedly it is illegal to work on a vehicle in your own driveway...? Not to mention I need to find a way of getting around while the Buell is down... I wish there was a metro around here   Sshbsn Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 09:27 pm:        The '07 Super Glide I owned for a short time pinged badly also, with no mods. In fact, I was never able to give the bike full throttle the entire 5K miles/3 months I owned it. I guessed the A/F ratio is just too lean, which will increase heat, giving me problems here in the Southwest Florida heat. Harley dealer wasn't concerned, so I sold the bike and swore off FI for good. When I had the '04 Firebolt (bought new) I put I think around 12K enthusiastic miles on it, much of it in hot weather, and never had a pinging problem. I guessed after the Super Glide episode that maybe the bikes are running leaner now than when the '04 was made. Of course, this is all just blind guessing to explain my experiences with those bikes... Instead of an 1125R, maybe it would be wiser (cheaper) to simply rebuild the engine and put an aftermarket device on it to control engine management. If you sell the XB, you may always regret it (I'm speaking from experience).   Interex2050 Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:18 pm:        Aftermarket engine control management is an alternative which I have not yet considered... I am actually quite excited about calling Buell Customer Service tomorrow, I really hope that they will be able to offer some help. Sshbsn, you are right I will regret selling my XB, my red dragonfly...   Oldog Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 01:15 am:        The valve guide issues don't make sense no oil smoke has been reported. failing lifters? Has the fuel pressure been checked? or the injectors / sensors? might be lean, have the plugs been checked?   Interex2050 Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 03:01 am:        That is correct no oil smoke... Lifters are on the suspect list The fuel pressure could be it, but I do not believe so; The fuel pump was replaced at 7120 miles, and the pinging was not really hindered by the new fuel pump. The injectors/sensors could be part of the problem... I do not think they have ever been checked, is it possible that they have been faulty from the very beginning? The plugs have been replaced, but nothing was mentioned with regards to them being in a sorry state... The summary of major related parts replaced: -ECU -Fuel pump assembly -Rear ignition coil -Stator (maybe more too tired to look through all the invoices) The following relevant items were recently (5k or more recent) inspected or replaced: -Plugs -Timing -Primary tension -Primary fluid -Engine oil/filter -Intake leak Some of the noises could be coming from a failing oil pump drive gear... The thing is that if I cannot solve the pinging issue and find the source/cause of the current state of the engine; I really do not see the point in investing the time/effort/funds into repairs because there would be no reason for it not to happen again... As I said earlier I will contact Buell Customer service and see where that brings me, maybe they can point me in the right direction I would really like to thank everyone for being supportive (its has been an eventful couple of weeks and this is just an added "bump in the road".)   Spike Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 08:15 am:        quote: Some of the noises could be coming from a failing oil pump drive gear... If the oil pump drive gear is suspect it should be inspected right away. If by some chance the gear is failing but hasn't come apart yet, fixing it will be a relatively low cost repair. If the gear it on it's way out and you wait till it fails completely it will send little bits of drive gear through the oiling system and completely lose oil pressure. If that happens you'll almost certainly be looking at a complete rebuild.