| Author |
Message |
    
Cell7481
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 12:21 am: | 
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I am having problems with my new XB12R and would like to get some ideas from the experts. For history, I have a 2003 XB9S for 4 years and have always wanted a Firebolt. I finally got my wife riding and she then signed off on me getting a new toy so she could ride the Lightning.
I purchased a 2007 XB12R in late June from one of our sponsor dealers and rode it home 600 miles away. During the ride, I followed the break in procedures to the tee. I stayed off highways for the first 60 miles and kept the RPMs below 3000 without lugging the engine. After 60 miles, I switched to the freeway and varied the speed from 60-80 for the next 500 miles constantly speeding up and coasting down. This was a hell trip to say the least!
Anyway, I noticed the new bike had a ping under load between 3500 and 4000 and this ping was much worse under load (throttle or weight). Took it to the local dealer for the 1000 mile service (900 miles on bike) and mentioned the ping. They retimed the engine and the ping went away.
When the ping went away, another problem came up. After the first retime, the warmup was very erratic with the RPM's jumping much more than before. It missed twice after a short warm up (3-4 minutes) and stalled both times during the first hint of throttle. It also missed a couple of times in a parking lot after a 4 hour ride under load in first gear with a resulting black puff of smoke from the muffler.
Took it back to the dealer (1400 miles) and the service manager stated the interactive exhaust probably caused the plugs to fowl up and proceeded to tell me how much problems the muffler causes. He said he was going to change the plugs. I mentioned to him that I purchased a new race kit off of ebay but didnt want to compromise the warranty with this problem. The manager said the kit should solve the problem if it continued. I left the bike for a week so he could do the work.
After a week, I followed up with the manager and he stated he was waiting for a fuel pressure tester for the 07 and it wasn't ready. I had to pick it up as is for a trip to the mtns. and dropped it back off with 2200 miles on it. Two days later, he said all checked out with tech services and the race kit should be installed.
I installed the race kit (factory exhaust, ECM, air filter) over the weekend and did the TPS reset. Drove the bike a couple of trips for a total of 150 miles with 25 focused on the constant 60 MPH for the AFV to learn in the ECM. During the last ride yesterday, I noticed I am still getting an intermittent ping between 3000 and 4000 RPM under stronger acceleration.
Does anyone have any idea on what else the dealer should check? I am at a loss and have been very frustrated with the constant in and out of the shop for the same problems. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 12:40 pm: |
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If you can find a borescope, you can check for carbon deposits in the combustion chamber due to excessive oiling. Checking the spark plugs may be helpful too.
Also check for intake manifold seal air leakage. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 05:36 pm: |
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Mine has the same issues here in Australia.
Try this - Take the airbox assembly off and with the bike running spray some electroclean at the junction where the manifold meets the cylinder heads.
If the bike starts to chug falter etc like mine it is the manifold O rings that are the issue.
Hope this helps. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 02:20 am: |
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Cell - And I have been looking at the issues this evening, 1. hats off to Blake the info seems to point to air leak.
a. I will post Vdsts records of warmups on 2 bikes we did 3 originaly but my laptop shut down and corrupted the data for the bolt. for reference we used warmup to 300+ deg head temps tracking o2, et, tach, afv, IAT Lee also has a hand held IR temp device.
b. the "Xb12 "bolt" has at times LOW voltage from the o2 sensor, dips to 0 v of 7.5 sec were recorded with resulting upward AFV swings.
These readings come from riding the bike in light traffic about 7 minutes
As best as he can Lee localized the "Pinging" events to specific areas of low o2 volt readings, tach and TP readings
match the events described in his commentary.
Cylinder head temps front and rear differed by ~ 20F with the front head hotter than the rear the sensors are attached to the rear jug
We will be doing the propane test for air intake leaks tomorrow.
Track 1 2001 X1 reference A
Track 2 2003 xb9s
Track 3 2007 XB12R
data taken ON the road
We will be re running the recordings tomorrow pm.
stay tuned
From the Tree house Oldog & Cell. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 06:41 pm: |
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Today:
Cell rode the bike and caused an AFV reset,
over time the symptoms get worse again.
I have a map gas torch and we tried that, it did not effect any thing including idle when directed onto the side of the air filter, in that the map gas is in part acetelene( smells like it ) and is mixed with air the test may not be vallid,
We also had difficulties with getting a steady idle speed, we could not raise the idle to 2 k it would idle down.
O2 sensor wiring was scrutinized and is ok
o2 low volts lean, seems to be how it reads and acts, sure wish we could see the plugs, exhaust mounting ok the front header gets red long before the rear one.
and bike pings
Any other ideas ?
My buddy is getting frustrated, I can sympathize.. |
Cell7481
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 05:56 pm: |
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UPDATE: Not fixed!
So after another 10 days in the shop the ping is still there! The dealer replaced the throttle position sensor and it did not fix the problem.
I have owned the bike 57 days and it has spent 23 of those days in the shop (only 2 Sundays).
Any other ideas? I have already given up on my dealer but the next one is over 2 hours away!
On a separate note, what is the next step to escalate this to Buell?
Thanks for the help,
Lee |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 06:14 pm: |
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Did your dealer check for the aforementioned intake manifold seal air leak?
To bubble up the issue, call Buell customer service at 414-343-8400. Have your V.I.N. and dealer info handy. |
Cell7481
| | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 10:46 am: |
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Blake,
Thank you for your input. I talked to the service manager today and they did try the air intake leak test and did not find one. The service manager is going to call Buell directly instead of tech services to see if he can get any other answers. I know my frustrations have been as much with the dealer as with the problem as followup and communication has been non-existant. For example, I dropped the bike off, left 2 messages for service, never heard anything and 10 days later stopped by the dealer only to find out that the TPS had been ordered and installed that day.
Lee |
Heyfred
| | Posted on Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 01:30 am: |
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This might help.
My 04 XB12R would detinate all the time and took to the dealer 3 times with no success in having it fixed. Here is what I have done and had good results. Get TPS numbers first. MY TPS was set to low at closed throttle from the factory.
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/297661.html?1188105385 |
Cell7481
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 02:47 pm: |
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Update:
Still not fixed.
I called customer service and got a reference number. I took the bike in at the end of August and gave the dealer the reference number. I also sent a letter to Buell notifying them of the problem with the bike in writing. The dealer had the bike until last Friday (another 25 days) and said it was not pinging anymore. They blamed it on the factory race kit and gave the bike back to me stock. Well, over the weekend I rode the bike 2 times and got the motor to ping several times again.
I have dropped the bike off one final time at the dealer but with it being in the shop for 48 days so far, I am at the end of the journey. To make matters worse, I have not heard from Buell or Harley customer service after the overnighted letter. I have sent another letter and am ready to throw in the towel.
Buell's communication and troubleshooting have really let me down on this one. |
Sparky
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 03:57 pm: |
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Has anybody thought of checking the timing to make sure it is not advanced? |
Saberworks
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 05:47 pm: |
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Cell7481, it took them a couple of weeks to respond to me when I sent them a letter. They will respond, be patient. |
Heyfred
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 07:10 pm: |
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This may help.
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/297661.html?1190251518
The TPS has to be altered to up the voltage.
Stock is around .633v at idle, needs to be increased to.980v or close to, not over 1.0v.
* Set idle at 1,000 to 1,100 rpm.
* Then, manually rotate TPS to approximately .980v |
Sparky
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 01:20 am: |
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HeyFred, what did your TPS mod do to your fuel economy before and after making the mod? |
Heyfred
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 10:22 am: |
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The low fuel light would come on at 120 miles before the change. I remember looking at the mileage after the change and it came on at the same time.
Alot of my testing was in traffic and short trips on the freeway. I need to go on a long road trip to see if the mileage has increased while freeway burning. Before the modification, I could go 150 miles before the low fuel light would come on. |
Cell7481
| | Posted on Friday, October 05, 2007 - 03:15 pm: |
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Update:
First of all, I would like to thank Hayfred and others who have added some advice to the thread. I passed these things to the deal to look at as the bike is still under warranty.
A factory tech finally came out to look at the bike after it has been in the shop 57 days, 6 trips, and 2 certified letters to the factory for notice of defect.
The tech rode the bike during a cooler day and the only noise he was able to replicate was a "top end ring noise" which he said was in all 12XB motors when they get hot.
He could not explain why it was worse with the race kit (new) and has tried to assure me that it is normal.
I do not believe the diagnosis as there is still an intermediate ping in the motor but it has been more difficult to reproduce in the cooler weather. It also does not make since due to the fact it was worse with the race kit.
Does anyone else experience this type of noise / ping which is like keys rattling when the bike gets hot? As I said in the last post, I am ready to throw in the towel because the last thing I want to do is to keep a bike which does have a defective part in the motor which will eventually fail and I do not want the bike in the shop another day as I have already lost just about the entire riding season.
Thanks for the help,
Lee |
Heyfred
| | Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2007 - 02:41 am: |
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Yes, I have been thru it. My bike was at the dealer 3 times and was disappointed with the out come.
Dealers are not in tune with the understanding of the EFI.
This is when I grabbed the bull by the horns and decided to try and fix it myself.
My XB12R runs great in all conditions.
(Message edited by Heyfred on October 06, 2007) |
Torq
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 08:37 am: |
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has it been consuming larger than normal amounts of oil?
my '05 12s had a compound problem of excessive oil loss and pinging when hot-and after several trips to the dealer and many of the procedures you've already been through the tech decided to pull the heads and check the valve seals and in doing so found that one of the cylinder heads had a porous casting. he replaced said cylinder head and reconditioned the other. that was 2 years and 14,000 miles ago and I have not heard a ping since. I live in South Florida--closer to the Keys than Miami and my pinging occurred even in 60 deg weather-and since the repair no pings even after 2 hours of traffic in July.
BTW-we spent 5 months,9 trips, and 3k miles to remedy my concern with 1000 miles of riding and not touching the oil level as part of diagnosis procedure-bear with it-when it is right it is worth it |
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