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Buell Forum » Knowledge Vault (tech, parts, apparel, & accessories topics) » Troubleshooting (Poor Starting/Running/Handling/Ride Issues) » Archive through May 25, 2007 » XB12 Cutting off while riding « Previous Next »

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Rob04xb12
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 09:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Now this is weird...

I will be riding along with out a glitch then all the sudden the bike will just die like I hit the kill switch. There is no sputtering or anything... just turns off.
So I pull over and try to start again, but nothing. It will turn over like normal but just wont fire. Interesting enough, I found that if I pull the 30amp fuse for the entire bike (like a reset for everything electronic) for a few minutes then replace it the bike fires right up. I can also wait about 30 minutes on the side of the road and it fires again. But if left at an idle for more than about 5 seconds it will die again and do the same thing again. Harley guys have no idea what the deal is and they couldnt "duplicate the problem" whatever that means. Anyone got any ideas? I had the plugs, wires, AND coil replaced so its not the ignition. Im all out of ammo
HELP!!!
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Sparky
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 01:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Does the Check Engine Light come on during these episodes? If so, there may be error codes that can help diagnose the problem.

What does the tach do when the engine dies? Does it jump around, go to zero immediately or track the rpms as the engine winds down to a stop? If it tracks rpms, that might be a clue that the ignition is probably OK. If it goes to zero, that might point to something cutting out the ignition.
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Rob04xb12
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 08:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

When I hear that the engine has cut off and look down at the tach, it has dropped to zero. The engine dies very quickly... like in a split second. When it dies, the check engine light doesnt come on, but that little oil light does.
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Sparky
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Pretty sure there is something cutting out the ignition. I would check for error codes first in the hopes that the EFI knows something is amiss.

If no error codes, then I would start with the basics: tracing wires and checking connectors. I'd check the wiring from that 30 amp fuse looking for worn insulation or bare wires, especially where the harness makes sharp turns or lays on the engine or frame.

Make sure the wire harness connectors are firmly seated at the ECM and where there are the disconnect type plugs/terminals. Check all the fuses closely looking for hairline breaks or burn marks.

If the electrical wiring integrity checks out OK, then the electronic components and sensors need to be tested. The failure appears to be heat related.

How much of this troubleshooting do you want to do yourself? The factory service manual (FSM) goes into great detail checking out every EFI component. Do you have one and are willing to jump right in?
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Rob04xb12
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 09:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Well I took it back to the Harley guys.. and the shop foreman seems to think it is either the cam position sensor or the actual ECM itself that is wacked out. Hes going to replace both and hope that works. As far as doing stuff myself, I dont think I should jump into all that. I looked over all the electrial that I could see under the seat and everything looked good. There was no rubbing or anything like that. I really think it is a sensor somewhere that when I pull the 30amp fuse it is reseting that sensor.
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Sparky
Posted on Friday, May 04, 2007 - 12:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Electrical intermittent problems are the hardest of problems to diagnose because often the damage is hidden or it's inside a component that looks perfectly good on the outside. Hang in there, you are in the hands of professionals now.

Excuse my sarcasm, but what you are saying is that they are throwing parts at it hoping the problem goes away. That's poor shop practice, IMHO. If it were me at home, I'd test one part at a time and see if it fails. But don't tell them I said that. Rather, encourage them to do a good job. Bring donuts.: )

Oh well, as long as you are happy with the end result. That's what matters. Hope they fix it and you are on the road grinning again.

BTW, is the shop making you pay for stuff they are replacing or is it covered by warranty?
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Blake
Posted on Friday, May 04, 2007 - 01:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Sounds like a faulty tip sensor, aka "bank angle sensor."
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Rob04xb12
Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

All im paying for is the part that actually fixes the problem, and some labor of course. I already know they are going to screw me with $$$... but thats life. The bike doesnt have a warranty.

With the tip sensor, shouldnt the bike start again if the ignition is turned off and turned back on again? In my case, when you turn off the bike and turn it back on again, it will not start. You have to either 1. Pull the 30amp fuse, or 2. Wait for about 30 minutes and it will start again.
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Sparky
Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

According to the manual, a faulty BAS will return an error code 44 and the engine may stop running. But it should be able to be restarted and ridden (to the dealer for repair).

I think that error codes are stored when the CEL comes on. But you said the CEL doesn't come on when it cuts out. It would be nice to know if there are any error codes stored and that the dealer checked for them.
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Rob04xb12
Posted on Sunday, May 06, 2007 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Yea there was no check engine light... which might also indicate a faulty ECM?

Something that relates to this a little:
I tried to install the Race ECM from Buell, had a tech do the install and the TPS reset... but the bike would not idle at all and only ran smooth when it was about 3000 rpm. We thought it was a bad computer so we sent for another one and the same problem ocured again. Is it normal for a XB12s to not like the Race ECM?
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Firemanjim
Posted on Sunday, May 06, 2007 - 07:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Sounds more like tech is not doing a proper TPS reset.
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Rob04xb12
Posted on Sunday, May 06, 2007 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Yea... he tried to tell me that is how the bike is supposed to run with the ECM. He has the exact same bike and his runs fine with the Race ECM. Kinda sketchy to me

I really want the Race computer on it but I dont know where else to take it!
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Buell920
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 11:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

so......Rob04xb12
lets look at what you have.
1) bike shuts off while riding
2) no trouble codes to say
3) starts back up with no historic codes
4) runs fine until it shuts down
5) no blown fuses
if your lights stay on and the motor turns over you should start by looking at your kill switches, ie jiffy stand, clutch switch, get a hair dryer and put a little heat at them. if they kill the bike then cool down the bike will restart. no trouble codes.... the bike thinks no better.

futher question for further help.
1)when it dies and you try to restart do you hear the fuel pump run?
2) when attempting to restart do you get a "double" click when you first hit the starte button
3) when the bike shuts off is it at steady throttle operation, acceleration, decel,?
4) is the race ecm still in it?
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Rob04xb12
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Looking at all the kill switches might be what it is. But that doesnt explain why when I pull the 30amp fuse (cutting power) then put it back in the bike fires right back up.

The fuel pump runs normally, i dont know what the double click means, and there doesnt seem to be any pattern in when this happens. The race ECM is not in it cause we were having issues getting it to idle.

Im waiting for the harley guys to call me. They are now putting in a new cam sensor, Ignition module, and maybe an ECM. Thats what they think it is.
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Buell920
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 08:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

pulling the fuse will remove any voltage from the ignition system "ie. heat sorce" the starter relay some times does funny things with heat.

double click is sometimes related to a poor ground from the battery or even the starter. "ie. no ground no power no spark no code"

I think the concern you are having with the race ECM is related to "WHEN" they are adjusting the idle. engine temp must be at 320deg and tps between 5.2 & 6.0 after it has been calibrated.

try this. go back in time and think. if I were to jump on your bike what would I have to do, ride , what ever to duplicate what your have gotten. there should be 1 or 2 things I could do to "duplicate your concern".

SC
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Rob04xb12
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 10:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

If you were to jump onto my bike and ride it, you would have to RIDE it to get my problem. If you baby it and ride it like a moped then it wont cut out... atleast from what ive seen. But if your acutally riding it like Buell should be riden, it will do it approx. 10 after the inital start and warm up. I do alot of engine braking, but not from high rpm. Ive noticed that engine braking will cause it. Also, heavy acceleration going above 3500rpm before shifting will cause it. It wont do it immediatly after doing any of these things, but these things listed above will cause it to cut out after some time... like a few minutes.
I dont think the Harley guys had my engine that hot when they did the calibration for the ECM. My feeling is they had it just warmed up a little bit.

**I have the stock ECM on it now**

Thanks -rob
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Rob04xb12
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 10:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Buell920:

Did you install your own race ECM and do the TPS reset yourself?
I have the same exact bike you do, and you know of the problems the dealership was having with installing the ECM. Im wondering if I should just do it myself. I know I need to contact American Sport Bike and get like $300 in parts, but if it works then I will do it!
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Jaymackwright
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 01:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I am experiencing the same mysterious shut down with my 06”Uly. This problem only started after my resent 10K service. The Bank Angle Sensor recall was performed at this time as well. My first ride after this service the bike shut off as you have described – I coasted to the road edge checked everything visually – nothing amiss found. The bike started right up and away I went. About a mile away form that spot it shuts down again. This time I just cycled the ignition key off to on and away I go. This has happened to me at least once every time I ride now – I am getting pretty good at flippin’ that key switch – so far it always touched right off again.

After the first shut off event I went to my HD shop and they investigated and installed a spacer on the ECM claiming the seat had crushed some wiring going to the ECM. I did notice some shrinkable tubing on two wires. (stock ’06 seat) After further investigation it looks like these wires were rubbing on the seat pan bottom, but there is nothing below for the seat to crush the wires against. I have not been able to see any way this would shut down the bike. And since this “fix” I have had the bike running with the seat off and pressed, pinched and prodded all the wiring around the ECM with no shut down.

My feeling is the BAS recall is the culprit here. I’ll wager if the Bank Angle Sensor shuts off the bike it is not reported or stored as an engine fault that would cause a check engine light to illuminate or an error code. Once again, this bike has only started this mysterious “shut off” phenomenon since the BAS recall.

After the “Crushed Wires” story I do not have a good feeling about returning to my dealer. I think they saw some thin insulation on two ECM wires and assumed this was the culprit – without actually proving it is the problem.

Does anyone know what the BAS recall actually did? Is it a new sensor – or relocation? Or ?? I would like to remove this sensor all together and see if I continue this “shut off”.
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Buell920
Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 07:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)


any news yet ?
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Rob04xb12
Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 10:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Okay, I got the bike back on Friday afternoon. I rode it ALL day Sat and Sun. IT FELT GREAT! The bike runs like it should now...
Harley Tech replaced the Camshaft position sensor... seems it was the problem.
Thanks for help!!
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