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Buell Forum » Knowledge Vault (tech, parts, apparel, & accessories topics) » Troubleshooting (Poor Starting/Running/Handling/Ride Issues) » Archive through May 25, 2007 » Surging below 3k rpm and hanging idle « Previous Next »

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Saszta
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 11:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hey, guys maybe you have some suggestions.
2003 XB9s drummer muffler stock ecm and air filter.

I'm experiencing hanging idle and surging below 3k rpm in gears 1-3. The surging was always there, even before the drummer muffler, but the hanging idle only appeared after a TPS reset.

What I've done so far:
- new plugs, plug wires, filters, engine and tranny oil and pcv valve (little spring tune up).
- removed engine temp sensor, checked resistance (good) and resealed sensor tip with high temp black gasket silicone (it was partially rubbed off)

Bike's idle still hangs when warm, fan comes on often and surges in gears 1-3 below 3k rpm.

I know some people are experiencing similar symptoms and some are even just "living with it" but that just doesn't sound right to me. Something must be malfunctioning, the question is what can be the most likely cause of it. Any ideas?
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Jlnance
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 08:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The first thing I would try is another TPS reset. It's not a difficult procedure, but it is more involved than pressing a button, so there is the potential that the last one was done incorrectly.

If you ask around you can probably find someone with the software who will help you out.
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Sparky
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The idle setting may not have been properly adjusted when they did the TPS reset. That's something you can do yourself.

The idle knob is alongside the left air scoop. Try adjusting the idle to 1050 rpm when the engine is hot. If that doesn't help then maybe try 1000 rpm. If that doesn't help then another TPS reset is in order.
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Saszta
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Well, I've already played around with the idle speed and have left it around 1050 rpm. Atleast that's what the rpm gauge states (not sure how accurate the gauge is)

Dealer is busy with spring rush and I won't be able to get the bike in until maybe some time next week.

Anyone around Montreal, Quebec have the software/laptop setup for a TPS reset?

I'm going to try some fuel injector cleaner for the low rpm surging, maybe that'll help and book an appointment at the dealer for next week for another TPS reset.

Thanks guys.
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Saszta
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 09:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Sparky here's some more info:

- Ran at a steady rpm at 3k in high gear for 5 minutes to let the system recalibrate but it did nothing noticable.
- I run high octane fuel from service stations, not sure how to tell if it's oxygenated or not.
- Did a resistance test on Engine temp sensor and is within specs.
- Engine does not ping
- Engine runs great during acceleration, has loads of power and is smooth, but pops on deceleration
- Hanging RPM only occurs when engine is warm
- Previous owner did no mods
- Have not checked the O2 sensor, exhaust manifold or muffler clamp for leaks.
- Have not checked fuel system or intake manifold.

In order I will:
- check intake manifold
- fuel system
- O2 sensor
- exhaust system
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Saszta
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 06:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Latest developments....
I got my little propane torch out and held the nozzle to the intake manifold and aside from thinking that I might blow myself up nothing happened to the idle. I don't think much gaz comes out of those hand held torches..anway plan B was to try some contact cleaner as someone posted - I think it was Blake. Nothing happened at first so I soaked it some more and bike's idle dropped, went a little higher and then dropped again - wooo freaking hoo! I've never been so happy to hear the idle sound like crap. So looks like the intake has a leak.

Next step is to order the parts and open her up. Man, I wish I did this before changing my throttle cables

I will have an update as soon as I'm done.
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Cringblast
Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 09:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Saszta,
Glad to hear (or not really) about the intake. I am gonna check the clamps and exhaust this weekend. Gonna get more primary inspection gaskets also and check the primary tension. If that dont do it then next will be the intake for me also.
If you got time send me an e-mail about doing the intake test and what it takes to get to it. I am taken the manual with me to work to read more at lunch. Good luck.
C.
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Saszta
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 10:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Ok, I've swapped the intake seals but the plugs are fouled, might have happened when I purged the fuel line - you need to run the starter without the fuel pump leads connected.
But I have noticed something else:
I performed a coil resistance check and have found my coil's primary winding to be 1.4 ohms and the secondary to be 12.3 ohms. The manual states it should be 0.5-0.7 ohms for the primary and 5.5-7.5 ohms for the secondary. I have a decent digital ohmeter and it's been correct in the past so I think the reading can be trusted. Does this warrant replacing the coil?

Going to try to find some plugs today...
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Sparky
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 01:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Note: the secondary coil, as measured from high voltage front terminal to HV rear, s/b 5.5K to 7.5K ohms. If you got 12.3 ohms, it's probably toast.
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Cringblast
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Saszta,
The surging on mine is 90% gone.
It was the primary chain. Loose.
Put it to about 5/8 free play.
Rides much, much better.
C.
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Saszta
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 11:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Update:
New Intake seals in (learned how to do this without rotating the engine downwards) and no more hanging rpm. Did not do a TPS reset. I still notice the jerky ride between 2000 and 3000 rpm in low gears but it doesn't SEEM as bad, although it's hard to compare. She rides smooth otherwise.

So Sparky, my coil is toast? I thought so too after taking those readings. That's a quite a difference. The weird thing is that the bike pulls hard on acceleration and is a pretty smooth ride aside from the slight jerky issue at low steady rpm. I'm thinking the coil is causing this, but I also find it strange that the bike performs well in other areas while having a faulty coil. Wouldn't it affect it all around? Do you think the coil could also be responsible for the exhaust popping on deceleration or is that due to a slightly lean condition?

(I'm ordering a coil Monday...)

Glad to hear it Cringblast.
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Sparky
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Saszta, if the bike runs OK, the coil is probably not toast. However, the reading you got, 12.3 ohms, on the secondary would seem to indicate a short in the windings.

But, I'd try another meter or, better yet, try measuring another XB coil and see if you can get similar results. The secondary's resistance should be read on the K ohms scale not the x1 scale and looking for 5.5K to 7.5K ohms, unless your manual says something different. Your coil should be the same as mine.

Also, how are you taking these readings? The XB9R manual is kinda misleading on where to put the meter leads. The picture shows a schematic and a diagram, IIRC, and each shows a different way to measure the primary and secondary windings resistance. One way using the center terminal as a common ground for both pri and sec terminals and the other way using the end pins for the primarys and the high voltage terminals for the secondarys. I was puzzled looking at that picture.

Anyhow, glad you got it running smooth. I don't think a coil is causing the popping you are getting now. A slight exhaust popping on decel doesn't mean much if it otherwise is a good running engine, IMHO.
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Saszta
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 02:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Doh! I think I may have goofed in taking my measurement of the coil. The service manual is misleading. By the way I always got 12.4K ohms on the secondary, sorry for not writing that correctly. When I measure I take it, as the manual shows , between the high voltage terminals for the secondary and between the outer pins for the primary.

I never used the middle pin as a ground so looks like there's a double reading. I'll measure using the ground pin and see what I get tonight. I think this forum (and you Sparky) just saved me the expense of a new coil. Thanks.
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The_new_guy
Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 11:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Saszta,
Great thread. I live not too far, in Plattsburgh, NY. I'm am having similar issues with my 12r. I have already tried checking my intake seals but am not sure that I did it correctly. Did you warm your bike up completely? Did you remove your air scoops or anything else? When I checked my seals, I used WD-40 but I think I will try again with starting fliud. How noticable change did you notice in idle?

Sorry for so many questions but I've been pulling my hair out over this for months. Also, sorry for the thread hijack but it appears that your problem is solved anyway.

Thanks,

Gregg

P.S. Any good Buell techs up there?
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Saszta
Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 12:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Plattsburgh eh? I haven't been there in at least a decade. Cross-border shopping days...

My bike's idle dropped really low and almost stalled after spraying the rear intake seal area with contact cleaner. After removing the seal I noticed that it was damaged while the front intake seal was not. So looks like the test was accurate and changing the seal has cleared up some issues and the bike does run smoother. I don't think I would try this with starting fluid though...that stuff is highly combustable.

I still have a slight choppy ride at steady throttle in low gears around 2500rpm but my primary chain may also be due for a tightening, although I sense the bike is doing more of a lean surge kinda thing. Bike's not throwing an error code so what to do? Maybe it's the fuel pump, maybe the ecm needs to be mapped to run a little richer, maybe the 02 sensor, maybe maybe maybe....tired man. I'm just gonna ride and when the season ends I hope to have a garage to work in and I'll see what I can do then. What I don't get is how many people have complained about this same issue but have not been able to resolve it fully and I've only read of two that say they have completely cured it. One says it was a faulty fuel pump or fuel pump connection and the other says it was the intake seals.

Good luck with yours and let me know if you find something.

Good Buell techs around here? None that I've come across.
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The_new_guy
Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 11:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I tried the starting fluid last night and the engine started idling really low. I reproduced this 4 times. One time it stalled out. I am ordering seals today. I'll let you know how everything works out.

Yeah, I have been dealing with this since last fall when I installed the Micron, open airbox and remapped ecm. It was probably the same before but I just didn't notice it because the stock exhaust was so quite.

Gregg
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