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Archive through October 06, 2006Rocketman30 10-06-06  08:18 pm
Archive through September 06, 2006Djkaplan30 09-06-06  08:18 am
Archive through August 24, 2006Davegess30 08-24-06  07:53 pm
Archive through August 22, 2006Henrik30 08-22-06  09:12 am
         

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Rocketman
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 08:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


8.8 ISO  bolt head


The bolt head to washer contact with the 8.8 ISO bolt is not optimum.


12.9 ISO cap screw


The same is true of the cap screw and washer, which is what both these pic's show.

Rocket
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Rocketman
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Excuse the quality of the above pic's, but you can see the washers don't meet up with the underside of the fasteners because of the fastener shape under the head.


F9 11 bolt head


If you don't see these markings on your Buell upgrade bolt head you need to research further as to why not, and make certain that whatever fastener you choose it matches the Buell replacement spec.


F9 11 bolt head and washer


This is what all the fuss is about when you need to understand the importance of achieving the correct torque spec. Note how the F9 11 washer is a perfect fit under the F9 11 bolt head.

Rocket
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Rocketman
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 08:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

And when all is finished it should look something like this.


1


Rocket
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Rocketman
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Do not forget to oil under the bolt head and washer, apply thread lock and torque to spec 60 ft lbs. Then back off bolt a full turn then torque again for one final time to 60 ft lbs .


2


Rocket
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Rocketman
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 08:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here's a cheeky sneak preview of a still not quite finished S1W.


S1W


If you look close you can see the fresh paint with ghost Buell font, though the holographic rainbow flake can't be seen in the pic (yes it's meant to be subtle, until the sun comes out, lol) and the more observant might notice the black suede seat.

Nearly finished!

Questions?

Rocket
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Rocketman
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 08:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

One more thing. The title needs altering to this topic as we are not just talking 00 M2 here.

Rocket

(Message edited by rocketman on October 06, 2006)
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Reepicheep
Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 12:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thats a beautiful looking S1 Rocket!
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Blake
Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 01:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Nice treatise on the fasteners. Thanks!

I think they may be so expensive due to their exclusivity, special production run or something like that. It is not like Buell to gouge on parts pricing at all.
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Rocketman
Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 05:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Reep. It looks fantastic in the flesh so to speak.

I'm adding a finishing touch next week, but of course it won't actually be finished. Truth is, I really should stop spending on it. No doubt the Buell will win me over which means she'll probably get some fancy brake / clutch levers from ISR, same as what Matt runs on the Trojan racer. I keep meaning to modify the license plate rear light mount. I dislike the way the bracket can be seen under the seat where the rear indicators mount. That's one area that can still be tidied up. And there's the cheap carbon look front indicators I need to replace. Might go Kellermans on the front. Other than that the next best thing would be a fancy rear shock and a slipper clutch.

Time and money will tell but I'm smitten with the 910 Brutale. All it will take a sensible offer on the Buell and I think it will be time for someone else to continue where I left off. I think of it like needing a new challenge. I've had the Buell down to every last nut and bolt more or less, and she's more like a chore these days. I'm looking forward to having to drop the Brutale engine to shim those radial valves. Know what I mean, lol.

Blake, the mention of the bolt pricing was probably down to my PMT, but I bet they're cheaper from Bolts 4 U. Typically with things Buell over here, your dollar retail ends up about the same as our pound retail, so I'd expect these bolts to be nearly $8 each from Buell US. Be interesting to see what Bolts 4 U charge.

Rocket
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Reepicheep
Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 09:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What are radial valves? Is that just another term for the "shim over bucket" inline 4 stle valves?
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Henrik
Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Nice looking bike Rocket.

fancy brake / clutch levers from ISR.

Those are some very nice pieces. I put a set on the S2 and absolutely *love* the difference in feel - and look of course : D

Henrik
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Rocketman
Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 06:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

We are talking overhead cam here Reep.

Radial valves are situated around the combustion chamber in a pattern that allows for better gas flow by angling them over in which ever direction suits. Think of planet earth and place 5 valves with their faces squashed tight down and equally spaced around the Arctic Circle. Because of such different angles of each valve it is required camshaft lobes be ground offset in the MV engine. I'm not familiar with Yamaha radial valve camshaft profiles.

Sorry but I can't find anything on Google about them that would offer a better explanation or even a diagram. Weird!

Henrik, I had a good look and feel of the ISR levers at last years Int Bike Show. The quality looks very good and the price is much better than anything from elsewhere. They'll be bought if a Brutale doesn't come up soon.

Rocket
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Knickers
Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 09:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

For anyone that's interested here's a close up of the fractured LHS mount bolt from my '00 S3. I was riding alongside my gf who was on the bike, at a stop I looked down and saw the bolt poking out from the mount - the clutch cable kept it from dropping out on the ground. I'm no expert in reading fractures, what do y'all think?


front mount bolt
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Mikej
Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 09:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That doesn't look like a "fracture".
Would be interesting to see what the other half looks like if it can be removed without damage or if it can be photographed prior to removal from the head.
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Steveshakeshaft
Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That doesn't look like a "fracture".

Difficult to tell from here, but that fracture surface looks like a classic fatigue crack failure.
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Knickers
Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 05:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thats what I thought based on the growth rings but my knowledge is sketchy. All I can remember from Mechanics of Materials is that failure from torsion results in a 45 degree beveled surface or something so that ain't likely it. I should be able to get a good pic of the mating half after I remove the mount before I attack it with the drill.
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Knickers
Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 06:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well I finally got around to removing the mount so here are some shots of the mating part of the bolt still stuck in the head. The fracture occurred at the 2nd to 3rd thread in the head. I'm guessing that's the point of highest stress in the bolt.

Notice the machined surface on the head. The lower part shows discoloration as if it were exposed to the environment while the upper half has no oxidation but shows fretting. Maybe the clamp load was significantly uneven top to bottom causing higher stress in the bolt leading to fracture.

I wonder if I just put new bolts in, am I destined to repeat the failure? I suppose if I can go another 19K miles before it happens again I can live with that. The other thing I gotta think about is if one of the machined from solid aftermarket mounts might even out the clamp load. Hmmm....


bolt1


bolt2
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Bad_karma
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 12:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Rocket that goods info, Kurt that looks like my failure. Same side and same depth.
Joe
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Knickers
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 03:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

AAAARRRRGGHG!


broke


Well maybe I just need to 1250 kit this thing with some new XB heads or something. This is frustrating beyond words. After much struggle and a lot of heat I finally felt the extractor start to turn. Only to discover to my horror that it was burrowing deeper into the hole after snapping the bolt and head.
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Oldog
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 05:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Never never never use an ezout
It looks like remove / weld up / remachine.

Sorry to see this!
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Jackbequick
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 09:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You might have had a chance with the EZ-Out if you had heated the bolt to 700F to 800F or so first, that would have cooked off or unlocked the LocTite.

And sometimes drilling a hole all the way through the remnant and spritzing some BreakFree in the hole while the bolt was still hot might have helped too.

I've never had to get that particular broken bolt out but after reading all the sad endings here, I'm going to spend an hour or two or preparing to remove the bolt and 30 seconds getting it out. Yep, that's my plan...

Some years back I got several similar broken bolts or studs out of some aluminum aircraft crankcases by drilling them through length wise (3/16" hole drilled in a 3/8" studs) until the drill broke through the bottom of the bolt, then I used a Propane pencil torch to heat the bolts through that hole until they got hot enough to relax a two part epoxy sealant/locking compound that was severely complicating things. Then, while all was still hot and the epoxy soft, the EZ-Out worked fine.

Jack
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Al_lighton
Posted on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 12:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Bummer.

I've removed a few of these. You need to use one of these SHALLOW GRIP screw extractors:

http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.aspx?Re qTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr=2799&RelatedCtlgPgs=2799,28 00&term=Screw%2bExtractors&sesnextrep=913912978389 944&ScreenWidth=1152&McMMainWidth=892

A perfectly centered hole, preferable drilled with a left hand cobalt drill bit, is good. Looks like yours was a bit off center. AFTER you drill the hole, torch it with a propane torch. It's always come right out for me when done this way.

Once I put the NRHS mount on, my bolt breaking problems went away.

Al
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Jlnance
Posted on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 07:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Knickers - I similarly screwed up a head I was attempting to fix. It is quite an awful feeling when you realize the problem is getting worse. I finally took the head off and shipped it to cyclerama who did a wonderful job of fixing it for a very reasonable price.



I had drilled the outside stud out and gotten the hole sideways. They cut it out, welded it back up, remachined it, and sent it back with new valve guides, exahaust gasket, studs and bolts.

More info here:

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/171 43/324608.html?1199867858
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V74
Posted on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 08:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

i have wanted to know for some time,is it possible to counter sink the mount and put in XB bolts,as the XB mounts are counter sunk to accept cap bolts ???
or is the ally head mount not strong enough???
i like the flush bolted look
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Knickers
Posted on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 11:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yup, the left hand cobalt bits tore through the bolt really quickly, but you're right my hole was off center. Then I used the standard Mcmaster extractor. When I removed the mount, the right side bolt didn't have any threadlocker on it so I ASSuMEd the LHS wouldn't as well and therefore it should come out pretty easy. I applied heat to the head and not the bolt. Then I got impatient with my frozen knuckles in my frozen garage and used a little too much force. Now to pull the head and see about repair options...
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Gasaxe
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 11:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That snapped bolt looks like wrong heat treatment during manufacture,the bolt looks pot hard,
I think that metal fatigue leaves a finish like crystal ie lots of tiny peaks.
Lee
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Limitedx1
Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 08:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

if it matters at this point here is what i did.....put a slight amount of heat on it and let penetrating oil set on it overnight maybe two nights. used a small bit and put a hole right through the center of the thing, less than a 1/4" bit.

then i grabbed a slightly bigger concrete bit with the big flat carbide blade on the front. pushed hard and used the drill forward to break the bolt free, once it i saw it move ever so slightly, i put the drill in reverse put some @$$ into it and ran it right out of there!!! i jumped up and down so much my girlfriend at the time was asking what was wrong, lol. i said nothing i just saved so much time and money because i got a little bit lucky! so yes i may have got a bit lucky but maybe you guys can try the concrete carbide bit method and maybe have some luck!

p.s. i still have an asb front mount bolt kit left!
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Blake
Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 03:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I agree with the Professional Engineer, Steve.

That bolt does indeed appear to exhibit the telltale beach-marks of a classic fatigue failure. That in turn indicates that the bolt was subject to bending, which it should never see. Something, somewhere became loose for that to happen.

(Message edited by blake on April 22, 2008)
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Blake
Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 03:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"I think that metal fatigue leaves a finish like crystal ie lots of tiny peaks. "

Lee, I think that the type of fracture surface that you are describing would be indicative of the sudden catastrophic failure surface, the tiny area surrounding the 8 o'clock position in JK's photo.



The beach-marks that we see in the rest of the failure surface are caused by cyclic crack propagation. You know how when you pull scotch tape off its roll, then stop, then pull a little more, then stop and repeat that each time you stop it leaves a little mark on the tape where it has separated from the roll? Cracks in metal leave similar markings on each failure surface when they grow, until finally the tiny area left is so small that it cannot carry the static load and the bolt or whatever metalic part, fails catastrophically, breaking in two.

The marks left behind by cyclic (fatigue) crack growth are called "beach-marks" cause some engineer thought that they resembled the marks on a sandy beach left by waves. They do too. : )

(Message edited by blake on April 22, 2008)
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Steveshakeshaft
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 03:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I agree with all that Blake says above. Sometimes it can be very surprising just how far a fatigue crack can grow before the final tensile failure actually parts the fastener. The numerous failures I've seen over the years on this assembly are always interesting. I think that there is very likely more than one underlying failure mode working together, a cyclical bending mode being just one component, partial loss of bolt tension being another. Amongst the many interesting features of these failures, I have noted that in some cases there is quite noticeable fretting and loss of metal between the engine mount and the cylinder head lug joint surfaces. This indicates relative movement between the two parts and ofcourse contributes to losing bolt tension as it progresses. It's an interesting dynamic system.

Myself, on my '97 bike I have upgraded the cylinder heads to >04 XL heads and upgraded the front mount to a very robust aftermarket front engine mount from Al @ American Sport Bike. I don't ride enough to know if this makes the system immune to bolt failures, but the assembly I have is certainly more robust than the standard S1/M2/S3 design.
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Lemonchili_x1
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 11:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"I've removed a few of these. You need to use one of these SHALLOW GRIP screw extractors: "

I have the fun job of removing the broken bolt in my X1 this weekend.

Any suggestions on what size drill/extractor to use?

cheers,
chili
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