| Author | Message | ||
     Henrik |
Every so often I need to chase a thread after removing bolts, clean powder coat from threads, clean gunk off a bolt etc. etc., so I've been looking to get a tap and die set. Like I said, fairly basic needs, no production or high speed tapping. But I would like to get a set that covers the majority of thread sizes I'm likely to come across, so I'll need both Standard and Metric. Will I need other sizes? Prices on these sets run from a few bucks at Harbor Freight to obscene $$ for "designer" brands. Of course I have long ago stopped buying tools with cutting edges from HF as they're often not worth the $$. I looked through the Sears catalog and they have a good selection of sets Any thoughts on any of those sets? Other brand sets? Henrik | ||
| Road_thing |
Henrik, I've been using a set from Northern Tools (I think) for oner 20 years. For cleaning and thread chasing, they're fine, but I wouldn't actually try to cut fresh threads with them. I do so little actual "threading" that I just go to the machine tool supply place and buy the specific tap/die that I need for the job when I need to cut new threads. It was great dining with you Saturday night! rt | ||
| Bomber |
H -- ditto like RT sez -- if ya need to actually cut threads, minimum would be something along the lines of Sears -- the stuff from Northern et all seem to be hardened nicely, but not further heat treated -- very very brittle in my experience of course, I'm the guy that bought a set 10 years ago, but goes out and buys 3 or 4 small taps at a time in advance of starting a new project that needs lil ones -- can you say "ham fisted?" sure, I knew ya could | ||
| Rocketman |
There's a nice $90 mixed metric \ US thread, re-threading kit from Snap-On I have a different (older) set than that one , with the 'proper' thread cutting taps and dies. It's been a great set over the years, and still is. When I consider I've cut hardened steel with the dies many times, the quality does stand up. Rocket | ||
| Henrik |
Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I guess a thread chasing/re-threading kit makes sense, since that's what I'll actually be doing (DUH!). Of course venturing to that evil Snap-On site is always a risk and a challenge. Thanks again. Henrik | ||
| Jackbequick |
If you get around flea markets and see bread pans full of taps and dies, you can get both great deals on good quality tooling and a great selection. Especially if you are using them primarily for cleaning up tapped holes and bolts. If you see names like Greenfield, Pratt & Whitney, Union, mention of places in Massachusets, Connecticut, and HSS (High Speed Steel) you can count on the quality. Watch out for taps that are not marked HSS and that may have unground reliefs. Those may be carbon steel taps and they will be much more brittle than HSS taps. They have a place and purpose but this kind of work is not it. The Vermont taps that are common and cheap at hardware stores are often carbon steel taps, okay to buy and use but be very careful with them. Carbon steel taps are much cheaper to produce. If a used tap is clean and not rusty and you don't see any broken or deformed teeth, buy it. A used, slightly dull, tap is the preferred tool for cleaning out threads as it is less likely to cut and oversize the thread. Look for plug taps with the first three or four threads ground to a reduced in diameter with a cutting relief as they will start easier and at less load. Bottoming taps only have one or two threads slightly beveled and relieved and are for cutting to nearer to the bottom of a hole. All taps are in danger of jamming when at the bottom of a hole, you cannot tap to the bottom of the hole, the threads will not be fully cut as you near the bottom . On used taps, look for some of the useful oddities like long shank taps and gun taps with long shanks of reduced diameter so that it can be used for cleaning up through holes. For the most part you want a tap and a die for every common UNF/UNC (Unified National Fine and Coarse) or NF/NC (National Fine and Coarse) thread. Here is a link for the common American threads, if you cover the UNC and UNF threads for #8 and #10 and the fractional sizes from 1/4" through 3/4" or so, you'll probably cover every fastener on a Buell that is not metric (short of a full engine and crankshaft dissassembly and reassembly maybe). For Metric threads this table lists the common sizes. Metric threads are designated by the diameter and pitch of one thread instead of the number of threads in a distance. Many hardware stores only list the metric diameter and length and omit the pitch. It is best to take one with you and make sure the threads mesh to ensure the pitch is correct. Again, finding metric taps at flea markets can get you very good tooling at very cheap prices. Look for tooling marked Germany, Poland, Czechokslovakia, or Japan and the HSS steel marking for best quality. I could go on for hours about tap and die wrenches and handles, but look at the diameter of the dies and the size of the square end shanks on taps. Then look for the tap wrenches and die holders that match. Again, old American tooling is best and can be cheap. You generally only need two tap wrenches and two die holders to cover all the sizes. General and Union make a reversible and locking racheting tap wrench that is a wonderful tool for mechanics. Turning taps with a Crescent wrench invites a broken tap disaster. Use lubricant and never force a tap to turn in either direction. If it sticks work back and forth gently, adding oil or lube. Turn taps 1/4 or 1/2 turn at a time and back them up to sever and relieve the crud that builds up on the cutting edge. Continuous turning is okay if a tap turns easily but be ready for a jam and then back off to clear it. I use PB Blaster and lube all threads before I try to clean them with a tap. Then I blow them out with air and then degrease them with carb cleaner. One exception might be for red and blue Loctite residue if they will come out dry and easily. Jack | ||
| Road_thing |
Rocket: Snap-On makes Whitworth taps??? ...who'd'a thunk it... rt | ||
| Rocketman |
Been in the UK, I waited ages to get a set of long combination AF wrenches, I can tell ya. Metric, no problem. Anything imperial over here went out with The Arc. Rocket | ||
| Henrik |
Tom; great seeing you again and I was very happy to get to finally meet Michelle as well. Jack; as always, thank you for taking the time to type up all that very useful information. Very cool - and now I know who to get in touch with when I bugger up thread or snap off a tap (or would that be a die  ) in the engine block (touch wood). Henrik (Message edited by Henrik on July 17, 2006) | ||
| Bomber |
henrik -- when you break off a tap (I'd pay MONEY to see you break a die!), think three letters EDM they'll let you gray and go bald at the rate your maker intended, rather than at a greatly accelerated rate you don't have to ask how I know ;-} | ||
| Henrik |
EDM - Electric Discharge Machining??  Henrik | ||
| Jackbequick |
Electron Discharge Machining actually but you were close enough. And it is strong and appropriate magic when needed. When a spark jumps from the broken tap to an appropriately sized electrode (both submerged in an electrolyte) it takes a small fragment of the broken tap with it. It takes about an hour to remove a 1/8" length of a broken off 6-48 carbon steel tap from a Springfield rifle receiver. And it cost about $100 to have it done ten years ago. Carbon taps can sometimes be shattered with a chisel and removed. Or be heated to a red heat with a oxy-acetylene cutting torch and blown out. But both of these methods are hard on the surroundings. There is a tool called a broken tap remover that has fingers that will slide into the flutes and, in theory, turn the broken tap stub to remove it. But if the tap broke because of excessive cutting loads, a tap remover is not likely to work. But may occasionally. Keep the broken tap removers in the same drawer you keep your Easy-Outs for broken bolts and expect to have the same luck with them. Jack | ||
| Aesquire |
I'm a big fan of left hand drill bits for broken/seized bolts. Broken taps? EDM or left hand drill. Jackbequicks tapping advice is good. The soft aluminum used in 70's british bikes is real grabby ( read, will break tap if not careful) on taps, and easy to strip threads on when bolts are over tightened. Heli-coil is cheap for it's utility. | ||
| Rocketman |
I broke a tap in a Saab Turbo head a few months ago. I was rethreading an exhaust manifold stud hole. It took me bloody ages to get it out, and I mean bloody ages. Like several hours. Just chipping away at it with small punches and working it with needle nose pliers. Got the sucker out in the end. Don't break a tap ever! Especially down a deep hole. Rocket | ||
| Henrik |
EDM - I truly, honestly thought Bomber was referring to a mind altering substance of sorts (sorry Bomber), like Scotch or some such; like "Have a shot of EDM before you throw a hissyfit and start sledgehammering things." Did a search to see what he might have meant. Electron Discharge Machining was the first thing Google pulled up and I posted it here partly as a joke. That's bleeepin' hysterical  The things I learn here - priceless. I'll be careful with taps, promise  Henrik | ||
| Bomber |
Henrik -- given my history (sorted), my choice of colleagues (Thang, nuff said), and my manifold references to mind altering stuff (hey, if you had MY mind, you'd want to alter it too!), you're logical leap was entirely appropriate and expected . . . . . broken taps CAN serve to expand your grasp of good, solid anglo-saxonisms (many of which are nordic in their source) -- just make sure that young persons are not within earshot (they hear better than you n me) when you break a tap in a workpiece your already got 3 or 4 hours into . . . HSS IS the way to go, btw, great data in these posts | ||
| Jackbequick |
If anyone gets up to the Bar Harbor area and contacts me, I'll give them a personal tour of the Hulls Cove Tool Barn out on Mount Desert Island. They have tons of good old American tools and tooling and the prices are fair enough. I'll bet for $20-$30 you could put together a basic collection of taps and dies that might be some of same ones our fathers and grandfathers may have used. I have taps and dies that have been in three generations of my family and they are still useful. Want to tell if a tap is sharp? Drag the point of one cutting tooth across your thumbnail lightly with the cutting edge at about a right angle to the nail. If it does not raise a little berm of nail material it is dull. Maybe not too dull to use but not brand new sharp. When I was gunsmithing, I often used brand new taps one time and then put them in my used/other work box. When you're working on an expensive gun the risk in breaking a used tap is not worth the the savings. On hardened receivers, tapping a thread would require that the tap be advanced for just the slightest cut and then reversed to cut the chip off, then start the cut again. The more material there is built up at the point of cut, the heavier the cutting load. On a hardened steel rifle receiver it might take 40 or 50 advances to get one revolution out of a tap and one thread cut. It would go a little faster after you got through the surface hardness but not much. If it was a through hole, the material would get harder to cut again as the tap neared the bottom of the hole. And some soft materials can be more troublesome than hard. I did that work with the receiver clamped to a milling machine table and the tap centered and in perfect alignment with the hole. To do work like that with a "free hand" tap is an invitation to disaster. Ten years ago I used to charge $25 to $40 per hole to drill and tap receivers for scope mounts or sights. Your basic four hole drill and tap took about 90 minutes. Don't know what that kind of work brings now. Jack | ||
| Mikej |
"a personal tour of the Hulls Cove Tool Barn out on Mount Desert Island" That'd be neat even if someone wasn't planning on buying anything. Either that or growing up around machine shops has warped my idea of the definition of neat. | ||
| Jackbequick |
Mikej, You have the disease. I caught it from my Father. The lady I married got me by putting a small dab of TapMatic threading lubricant behind her left ear. I never had a chance. Jack | ||
| Henrik |
Anything with Tool Barn in the name would be disastrous to my credit card. I'll definitely take you up on that offer if I'm ever in the neighborhood. Threading tiny holes in high$$ firearms ... that's gotta be anxiety inducing. Henrik | ||
| Bomber |
yet another place to avoid if the child will be allowed to finsihs college -- luckily, Maine is a ways from the Entropy Lab (though we've a similar place in this neck of the woods -- I ride about mile outa my way on Saturady Suburban Dad Errand Loops to stay out of the neighborhood) | ||
| Rocketman |
Henrik, just today I was going through my tools when I came across this from Mac I forgot I even owned it. It's an awesome re threading kit for Metric UNF and UNC with a couple of thread files too. Rocket | ||
| Davefl |
I got what looks like that exact set from Sears Craftsman for about half the price of the MAC kit.. I have seen the same kit sold as Snap-On and I cannot see any difference. | ||
| Henrik |
Rocket; thanks for the link. Like Dave, that's the style kit I ended up buying from Sears: http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?pid=00942275000&vertical=Sears&BV_UseB VCookie=Yes I'm thinking part of what you are paying for with Snap-on and Mac is choice of materials for the bits, manufacturing quality standards, hardening etc. etc. You may of course also pay a bit for the name If I had that kind of $$ or could justify the expense by using my tools every day for my job, I'd buy Snap-on in a heartbeat. For my occasional shade tree mechanic use though, I've been very happy with the Sears Pro tools. Solid tools with lifetime warranty and lately very nicely designed and manufactured. I'm currently lusting for a set of their new thin profile ratchets: http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Mechanics+Tools&pid=00942055000&ve rtical=TOOL&subcat=Ratchets&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes But then there is a little beauty like this one: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=54377&group_ID=128 98&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog Oh, so many tools, so little $$ Henrik | ||
| Road_thing |
Snap-on tools are definitely works of art. If money were no object, I'd buy nothing else. Unfortunately, money is always an object...that's why most of my tools come from Sears! I have an old friend who's a professional diesel truck mechanic and he uses pretty much all Snap-on stuff. I once asked him if it's really worth the extra money over Sears and he said, "Yes, if the choice is losing 2 hours of work at flat-rate plus to run to Sears versus buying it off the Snap-on truck out in the parking lot on your coffee break!" rt | ||
| Jackbequick |
Hi, my name is Jack and I'm a tool queer. Hi Jack! Owning tools is a life long contest. He who dies owning the most tools wins. No winners have been declared to date because as soon as the leading contender dies, all his friends visit his widow, pay their respects, and then go out to the garage to "get back the tool he borrowed". And the contender gets taken out of the running. Jack | ||
| Henrik |
Jack - funny, and you're so right Henrik | ||
| Bomber |
Jack -- that is the truest thing ever written on Badweb . . . . . couple a years ago, a buddy dropped by to return a oddball tool he'd borrowed (no, THang, I was not the oddball tool!), and to drop off a couple of oil-fitting wrenches I needed to use (snap-ons!) - -I wasn't home, so my better half took care of the exchange she took the fitting wrenches out to the e-lab, and put em on the bench -- couple of my sears wrenches were on the bench, natch, and, being a curious soul, did a compare and contrast on the snap-on vs craftsman when I returned home, she said, "your tools look and feel like cheap stainless silverware -- your bussies wrenches are like sterling silver place settings. why don't you have what he has?" stupidly, I did NOT leave immediately, looking for the local snap-on guy -- I tragically explained the price difference, and use crafstman to this day learn from my mistakes, brothers, and go on to make new ones of your own! | ||
| Rocketman |
There's a lot to be said about using quality tools. That said, Snap-on most definitely put their name on other manufacturers products (with permission of course, lol). Mac no doubt do likewise, and that Craftsman re thread set looks suspiciously identical to the Mac one at twice the price. In case anyone doesn't know, Ebay can be a great source for Snap-on or similar makes, and at much less than retail. Oh and Henrik, I have that little stubby ratchet. Its role is limited to use in restricted areas though. By nature of its design, it offers little torque and it can feel heavy in the hand in certain circumstances, so you never find the need to use it as an everyday type handle. But as a get you out of the shit type ratchet it can be most effective. I bought a Blue Point range 3/8th ratchet handle from Snap-on recently. It's fine toothed and has a handle that you can rotate either direction (as well as draw back and forth) which allows the square drive to turn without the need to use the handle in a conventional motion. This allows the movement of the fastener via attached socket in a confined space where you can't move the handle at all. It's a great design \ idea, but I'll probably use it three times in the next five years, lol. Rocket | ||
| Jackbequick |
Bomber, you really missed a chance, didn't you. Craftsman has had its better days. I bought a starter set at Sears for $69 in 1967 and I still have almost every piece. And I added many tools from a number of companies over the years. But that starter set had beautifully made and marked wrenches that were made by Mac, Proto, Snap-On, or one of the other major American tool companies. My sons have both commented about how their Craftsman tools are clunky in feel and crudely marked in comparison. What did I get for $69? A set of open end wrenches, a set of box end wrenches, 3/8" and 1/2" drive socket sets along with the (then brand new) quick release ratchet handles and some extensions. Also, a set of electrical (miniature) wrenches, a hacksaw, and a tool box to carry it all in. Oh yeah, and about six screwdrivers and a set of Allen wrenches too. And a pair of pliers. And magnetic inserts for use with the sockets. No hammers though. Jack | ||
| Road_thing |
No hammers?? What the hell kind of tool set has no hammers?? I can't even adjust a carburetor without a hammer... rt ...maybe that's why my carbs all have those funny dents on 'em... | ||
| Henrik |
Oh and Henrik, I have that little stubby ratchet. Its role is limited to use in restricted areas though I have the Craftsman version - which is indeed clunky in comparison: http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Mechanics+Tools&pid=00944834000&ve rtical=TOOL&subcat=Ratchets&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes But I use it a lot - more than any of my other wrenches. I find it so easy to use for quickly spinning fasteners in and out, especially when I fold the handle up for better balance. Of course there are fasteners that need a longer wrench to break loose, but once loose I switch back. And I of course final tighten most fastener with a torque wrench - or Torque Instrument as Snap-On calls them , but if not, the short handle also helps prevent me from over-tightening smaller fasteners. Craftsman, I think, have improved on the design of their Pro Line of wrenches, ratchets, laser etched sockets etc. They're still lacking in details like knurling on the extensions of easier spinning. Of course, now that Sears also carry SK tools, they may have put further design (and thereby price increase) on hold for the Sears lines. Oh - tools ... Henrik | ||
| Rocketman |
Then Henrik, you'll probably love the Snap-on one too. I also have a Snap-on palm ratchet that's basically the head unit sat in a plastic square, that sits nice in ones palm (obviously,lol). The plastic square is hinged though, which allows it to fold out, making a short stubby handle. That's a cool tool. Especially for working in places like behind the instrument panel or under dash areas. Rocket |
