| Author |
Message |
    
Lorazepam
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 08:54 pm: | 
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Blake, I have to agree that a remapping is in order. I am sorry, but the tech seems to know what he is doing, and the service manager and I discussed it briefly.
Another reset of the tps, AFV checks ok, primary chain is good, and it (the lean surge) is still there. They checked the timing, the plugs, and all were ok.
I got to talk to the tech for about 10 minutes. He is young, but knows what he is doing. I quizzed him on how the TPS is reset and he ran down the procedure correctly. Explained a bit about the diagnostics also.
The dealership is doing what they can, and I will volunteer to test any remapping that is programmed. I plan on getting the software to diagnose the bike, but the light brackets going into production has taken that money for the moment.
I am happy with what the dealer is doing, and I appreciate this forum for allowing us to discuss the problems and positives we have. |
Lorazepam
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 09:06 pm: |
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Oh yeah, they set the idle to 1200 rpm, and it made a small difference. With the idle higher, is seems to make the cutoff time a bit smaller, guess the 200 rpms helps a bit when it starves out.
I have been maintaining horizontally opposed twins for a while, and with separate tb's, getting a proper balance was critical in getting rid of the surge.
I am new to the V twin, and look forward to learning what makes it run well and what doesnt.
Thanks again for a great forum. |
Opto
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 07:34 am: |
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I have the same problems on my Lightning and Uly. The Lightning was cured completely after I fitted a DIY aftermarket fuel injection controller (Megasquirt). I'll be doing the Uly soon. These engines run too lean at low rpm/low speed - it doesn't hurt them but rideability is affected negatively. Take a 1200 Sportster for a test ride and see how smooth it runs down low.
I think a re-mapped ecm from Al Lighton or Daves would fix the problem completely.
The Buell ecm also seems to suffer from a lack of adequate warm-up enrichment, that's why most owners have to let them sit around idling for a while to warm up, because it can be dangerous if the engine hiccups when you're trying to pull out into heavy traffic. The MS also cured that.
To let you know where I'm coming from I've been stuffing around with the fuel on the Lightning with a wideband O2 sensor for about a year on and off, it is a lack of fuel issue. All Buells are not the same, and I'm sure this issue (like the pinging issue) does not affect all Buells to the same or any degree. There are only two choices, live with it or spend money to fix it. It's only a problem at low speed, but I too find it annoying. I do love these bikes however, don't get me wrong. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 07:50 am: |
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Thanks Opto. No ones posted yet saying their bike doesn't do this. Perhaps they all do? That would be good to know as it means it's something the dealer isn't likely to be able to fix. Can anyone confirm their Uly is not having the problems described above?
BTW, I found another way to manifest the problem. Cruise down the road at 40 mph and snap the throttle closed. You can feel the surging as the bike decelerates. |
Opto
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 08:05 am: |
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I've never felt surging under deceleration, that's weird, did the dealer check that the inlet manifold seals aren't leaking? Probably not, might be worth checking. |
John88030
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:59 pm: |
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Lorazepam, please post again after you dealer looks at your Uly. I am very curious as how to resolve the issue. I will see my dealer on Monday but I don't expect very much. They have far more people selling motor-clothes then in bike sales, parts or service.
John |
Lorazepam
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:09 am: |
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John, Make sure they follow the TPS reset exactly as written in the manual. If they just reset it without backing off the idle screw, it will not be correct.
Make sure they check the timing, and the AFV.
Make sure they check the servo controlling the exhaust valve, that is is opening and closing properly.
I am thinking that maybe they maybe they rushed my bike the first time, and after I took it back, they took their time, and made the proper adjustments.
The surge will not go away completely. I have a feeling that it needs a bit more fuel below 2.5k rpms, and until someone remaps it, we will have to live with some surge. |
John88030
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 05:30 pm: |
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Well I have the answer to the low speed problem. It's "NORMAL, they all do it" there is nothing we can do short of selling you a race kit".
I was told that all technicians there are Buell trained and that there is no one who is the "Buell person" good or bad I don't know.
Eric please raise the price of the bikes $250.00 and include a correctly programmed ECM in the tail piece. Put a label on it "off road use only". Now I will have to send my ECM away, $250.00 for the key, $100.00-$150.00 for a map. The bike will be down for week or two, and that is if anyone is making a map for the stock system.
I know I could just purchase a race kit but, I like the bike quiet and I think the valve in the exhaust is excellent engineering and I want to keep it. It's fine every place except at low speeds.
Do I still like the bike? Hell Yes.
John 88030 |
Lorazepam
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 03:48 pm: |
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Dang John, sorry to hear that the techs are pulling out the old BMW excuse on you.
My dealer and service manager were great, and really worked with me to make it run as good as possible.
I understand that emissions regulations require a really lean map, especially at idle, but dang, I could live with a catalytic converter if it meant getting more fuel down low. |
Opto
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 04:47 am: |
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It's a two-edged knife, Buell have kept it simple and passed emissions with minimum equipment. If they added the catalytic converter then all owners would have to pay for that. Many owners like their Buell just the way it is, so I reckon Eric has left the owners with the options, maybe just as he would like it if he was a customer. For some there is disappointment, for others, an opportunity, and some others just don't ever ride in the lean zone.
The dealers really have there hands tied no matter how well they want to look after you. All they really can do is sell you a race kit, after thoroughly checking out the bike. |
Lorazepam
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 09:35 am: |
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My problem with the race kit is it isnt legal for road use. If the Feds or local LEO's get strict, it means removing the race kit and going back to the stock system.
Rejetting using software will be a new experience for me, and if someone can reprogram the existing ECM, to achieve a richer bottom end, I would be interested.
If you ride off pavement there will be times when you have to use the lean zone, and it isnt the time you need to have problems with surge.
I love this bike, and other than the lean surge down low, and the ineffective front fender, I think it is almost perfect. |
John88030
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 02:33 pm: |
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Some Ulys seem to have this problem some don't.
Would any one who is having this problem please post your altitude. Maybe something off with the pressure sensor. It seems this problem is showing up in Ulys but not in most other XBs, same ecm and such it seems they should have the problem too.
John |
Lorazepam
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 02:35 pm: |
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1100 feet, hardly high altitude. Havent ridden above 2000 feet AFAIK. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 09:15 pm: |
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285 ft |
Sparky
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 02:30 am: |
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For those who are having driveability issues with their fuel injected Buells, here's a point of reference. Have you ever ridden the demo fleet Buells? I have. They don't seem to have the lean surge issues that your bikes have, do they?
So, if their bikes seem to run OK and your bikes don't, why do you think that adding a race ECM and muffler will fix it? I think that will mask the problem not fix it.
Granted my experience with this symptom is limited. My XB9R, when it had a race ECM, ran rougher below 3 grand than when it had the stock ECM. So maybe I'm saying that making the mixture richer with a race ECM won't solve your problem because the race ECM does not meter fuel as precisely below 3 grand as does the stocker, wouldn't you think? |
Opto
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 06:33 am: |
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John,
The Buell ecm doesn't have a pressure sensor, it relies on the O2 feedback to set the AFV (overall fuel map multiplication factor), which also compensates for altitude.
Loraz, give Al Lighton a call at American Sportbike to see if he's offering a remapped stock ecm for a stock Uly yet. I can understand your choice of wanting to keep the stock muffler which prevents use of the race ecm. |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 06:41 am: |
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XB's are mapped TOO LEAN do to EPA requirements ... If they were water cooled it would be just fine to a point ... |
Lorazepam
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 08:19 am: |
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I already wrote Al, and at this point it seems that he isnt offering a remapped ecm at this time.
I plan on one of these days getting the software to remap the ecm myself.
I really had hoped someone would offer one, so I will wait a little longer. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 10:13 am: |
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Some Ulys seem to have this problem some don't.
Given this, it isn't an ECM problem. All the bikes are using the same ECM and the same map. Something else is different. We need to figure out what it is.
Quick question. Someone suggested that I check for intake leaks. Someone else told me, as we were discussion pyrotechnics, that WD-40 now uses a different propellent, and won't burn. If this is true, will the WD-40 method of intake leak checking still work? |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 10:27 am: |
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>>>>XB's are mapped TOO LEAN do to EPA requirements
I kinda doubt that.
The Buells exceed the requirements, in fact, FAR EXCEED them. I have a tough time imagining that Buell would market a bike that destroys itself JUST to meet some emissions requirements.
Just seems a bit "black helicoptery".
Court |
John88030
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 11:55 am: |
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I have talked to AL and Dave, neither have a stock remap yet. I hope yet is the operative term here. We will wait and see.
I don't think it's all "black helicoptery" I don't believe anyone believes that Buell is making a bike that will destroy itself. I just want it to run right at low speed. My dealer says there is nothing wrong so that ends that avenue.
I don't know crap about dyno charts but every chart I have looked at shows extreme lean condition below 2500 RPM something on the order of 17 or 18 to 1.
I did go back through the service manual and sure enough no MAP sensor or such. I got to get my head out of my Grand National and back to bikes.
Court I do appreciate your input, I am not saying that anything deliberate is going on just that my bike (and it seems several others) run poorly at low speed. If I have to spend several hundred dollars to fix it then so be it. I spent a lot of money fixing leaks on AMF Harley's too so be it.
John |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 01:32 pm: |
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John:
You and I agree.
Your bike should run right at all speeds.
You should not have to pay a couple hundreds dollars to make your bike right.
My point is not that your information is not accurate, it's simply that this is no plot by Buell ala'
quote:let's just lean it out, a few ticked off customers are better to deal with than messing with the feds
plot as has been inferred. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 01:39 pm: |
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Jl -- Dubbja Dee 40 will still owrk just fine -- it's not that you are trying to introduce some more combustible materials into the intake tract, you are trying to seal (albeit temporarily) the intake tract, and WD40 will do that just fine, regardless of the propellant change |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 02:29 pm: |
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My dealer says there is nothing wrong so that ends that avenue. ... my bike (and it seems several others) run poorly at low speed.
My take is that if they don't all do it (which seems to be the case) then by definition something is wrong.
I've asked my dealer to look at it but it still has some symptoms. So I'm somewhat stuck. I'm hoping we can get to the bottom of this and I can take it to the dealer and tell them "X is broken. Please replace it."
We don't seem to have made much progress in that direction. I'll try the intake leak test soon. Thanks for the info bomber. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 03:16 pm: |
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>>>My take is that if they don't all do it (which seems to be the case) then by definition something is wrong.
I agree.
You paid for a "right running" motorcycle. The dealer is R-E-S-P-O-N-S-I-B-L-E to ensure that happens.
Simple.
Go back and read the "Court on dealing with dealers" lesson and get with it. If the dealer can't fix it, they have a host of resources through the staff at Buell Customer Service.
These folks have seen it all and have TONS (helps to be the wealthiest motorcycle company in America) resources at their fingertips.
Let me clear....the folks at Customer Service have but one marching order...to SERVE customers....you paid your money, did your part of the deal, ask..politely the dealer to hold up his end of the bargain.
Easy stuff.... |
Lorazepam
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 09:54 pm: |
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Jlnance, Just because they all use the same map and ecm, does not mean that there couldnt be problems with the ecm itself.
There could be a bad run of programmed ecm's due to a malfunction of the burner. Could be a bad connection or resistor. Electronics are not foolproof.
Is it possible to trace if those of us with the low rpm problem have something in common besides altitude? Maybe build date? What about the ecm itself, does it have a serial number we could check to see when it was purchased by Buell?
My dealer wants me to be happy, and have looked at the bike 3 times. I believe they are sincere in doing their best when checking it over.
They are two hours away (90 miles),and it is a hassle for me to keep taking the bike there, and have them check everything again.
I agree that it is a mystery as to why some run well, and others have 25 percent of the rpm range that is useless to them.
My girlfriend is taking the MSF course this weekend, and I guess I will check for things myself, I have a manual now and will do some reading, and investigation while she is in class. |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 12:36 am: |
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Gale,
Not sure what is going on, I've ridden my bike looking for something that resembles your problem and I don't feel it. Of course, my bike is hardly stock any more. My good friend Tom Reiner (Reindog on Badweb) has a bone stock Uly that I'm trying to find out if it has any of these surge issues. I've ridden it before, I don't believe it does.
Has anyone that has an XB12 that ISN'T a Uly chimed in and said that they have a similar problem? Near as I can tell, the ECMs are the same. Since not all bikes seem to have this issue, I really don't suspect the ECM at all, least of all mapping issues.
I suspect an external sensor. If it is only low RPM, and only steady state, than it is in closed loop. I'd be looking real hard at O2 sensor connectivity issues. They are a 0-1V device, it doesn't take much to make that connection faulty. And I've seen O2 sensor issues that didn't trigger a fault light too. Check the connection of the O2 sensor to the pipe, and mate and demate the O2 sensor connector a few times. My 02 sensor wire was stretched drum tight across the rear rocker box cover, I had to change the tie wraps to make it not like that.
And remember Al's number one rule of auto and motorcycle mechanics: ALL problems are grounding problems until proven otherwise.
Al |
Opto
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 05:06 am: |
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Al,
It would be really nice if you could ride one of these affected bikes, as then you could witness the problem first-hand. Just like the pinging issue, you can swap ecm's and sensors till the cows come home, but nothing gets fixed, because nothing's really "wrong". For example, the specs in the FM for the MAT sensor, a critical component in the fuel calculation, is given as +/- 20%.
My XB12S didn't "surge" at low rpm, I would call it "running rough". After I gave it some more fuel at low rpm, it ran smooth. The difference between my Lightning and stock Uly engines is night and day, that is why I have suggested that you may be able to help with the DL software, but now I see there's not much you can do unless you have the whole bike, i.e. the ecm will need to be tuned for low rpm rideability whilst fitted to the particular bike it's going to be run on.
Ian. |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 08:01 am: |
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Court:
IMHO the fuel/air ratio should be 12 to 1 !!!
Have my 97S3T set up this way with timing and sparkplugs to match ... It works for
me ... If and when "i" get an XB12R with
a completely mapable "BRAIN BOX" this is
what "i" would tune for !!!
If "i" stay off the throttle "i" have gotten up to 56 MPG, of course when you
get on the loud handle the gas mileage
goes south ... |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 08:27 am: |
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Gail - Yes, sorry I wasn't clear. I should have said the problem isn't the design of the stock ECM. You are right, there certainly could be problems with these particular ECMs. |
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