| Author |
Message |
    
Aaron
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 11:09 am: | 
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Well, I ain't no expert on the design of CV's, but my understanding was that putting it in the intake tract gives the carb better altitude compensation abilities. |
Lsr_Bbs
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 11:20 am: |
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I had heard similar, but it would seem to me that if the vent is open to atmosphere...it would still have the same altitude compensating ability.
That's why I was wondering what the M2's OEM setup looks like...they use a snorkel (correct?), does the vent go to the intake track, or just open into the airbox?
Neil Garretson
X0.5 |
Aaron
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 11:56 am: |
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Since I'm sitting in my office and my nearest stock snorkel is 15 miles away, I can only guess, and that would be a yes. I remember reading sometime back that the holes in the top of the stock snorkel initially caused some bowl vent issues and they had to make a pre-production change. I think I read that in Battle2win. |
Gcpoland
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 12:38 pm: |
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Stock snorkel flange is drilled straight through into air box.
As a side note, one of my many useless carb experiments was to plug the vent in the front flange and drill and insert a nipple in the boss where it makes the 90 deg turn. Worked exactly the same. (On a 80" EVO)
Gary Poland |
Pammy
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 03:23 pm: |
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I think the blocked vent was part of my problem at the hp shootout in Daytona. I guess I shoulda read the board a little sooner. I took my Force off and Wes "ported and polished" it accordingly. Now to find a minute to try it out |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 11:09 pm: |
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Pammy: Had a flash back of riding your bike. Took a short ride on a Nallinized 88" M2. It would be a hell of a drag race between the two.  |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 11:14 pm: |
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Oops, topic police must arrest himself!   |
Pammy
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 08:32 am: |
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Blake,You missed a great Daytona this year. Hope you can make it to Bonneville.
I bet it was a great ride...Brian is a good guy. Ya got a dyno-chart on that bad boy?
P.S. I will be throwing mine on the dyno today(hopefully) |
B2m2
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 10:30 am: |
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Like some of the rest of you I pulled the Force intake off only to find a small float bowl intake passage on the manifold. Does anyone have any general dimensions of what the old cast manifold (Larger) passageway is? Sometimes I find it hard to stop once I get the porting tool in my hand. |
Loki
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 11:12 am: |
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Did we ever get an answer from FMC on this issue?
Loki |
Gcpoland
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 12:21 pm: |
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I sized the picture above, to the actual size of the intake, cut it out, and used it as a template for grinding out the new one. Worked slick, and saved a lot of guess work.
Gary |
B2m2
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 02:36 pm: |
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Gopoland, Sounds like a good approach to me. Thanx!!
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B2m2
| | Posted on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 08:52 am: |
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Like a kid with a new toy I had to use my newfound knowledge and Gopoland’s technique for transferring over the old passageway pattern and start carving on my intake manifold. Things went along fairly easily, the only question I had was the depth to which I removed metal to. I decided to go no further then the depth of the passageway that was already machined away. With that done time for test ride! No big changes at low rpm, there are big improvements above 3500 rpm, just as Aaron’s dyno graph indicates. The bike pulls much harder and quicker from midrange up to rev limiter, and an annoying blubber I had when passing through the 4000 rpm area is gone. I still need to play with the main jet, and see what benefits are to be had if any. Thanx to all!! |
Moperfserv
| | Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 07:16 am: |
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We just jetted a customer's bike with the problematic Force-winder. After grinding the float vent area it got a little richer but not rich enough. Fred put in a drilled-to-240 main jet and it still wasn't rich enough.
Finally he vented it to atmosphere (removing the plug at the 90) and re-jetted with great effect.
The problem is a dynamic one. The high velocity thru the length of the Force-Winder creates a negative pressure reference in the float bowl. The shape and size of the grinding can change the pressure but may or may not fix the problem. In a normal air-box the vent goes into a more or less dead area rather than a high velocity area in the F-W. The reason that an in-air-box reference is usually good is to compensate for ram air. An outside the box reference leans out if the air-box pressure goes up. |
Buellsht
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 10:37 pm: |
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Has any one done any dyno testing with a gutted air box with a K&N filter and venturi ring? I am curious how it compairs to either the forcewinder or the race filter. |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 06:42 pm: |
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Hey, I just stumbled on the dyno tests. Great stuff here! Thank you so much Aaron for the great info. This has got to be the best website on the internet - for any subject.
I've always felt that the Forcewinder, re-jet and V&H made a noticeable increase in the mid-range on my '00 M2. I was never sure though because I've never had the bike on a dyno or dragstrip. Not real sure I could count on my "seat of the pants dyno" for an accurate assessment.
Your wonderful dyno tests have validated my personal findings. I feel vindicated, but not by my own technical expertise in choosing the Forcewinder; I just liked the way it looked! It was just the visceral appeal.
As an aside to the story; I just had my SRP shock replaced (got screwed out of the C-note). The tech at the dealer told me my M2 was the most responsive and powerful Buell he's test ridden. They don't see many modded bikes there, mine was the first lightly modified bike they've had in the shop.
Thanks again for the outrageous technical information. I feel like I have an entire R&D department at my disposal.
And it's free!!!! |
S1lightning
| | Posted on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 06:53 pm: |
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I Know what you mean!!
My S1 has never been the same since sweet old K&N Force Winder SWWWEEEEEEEET! |
Aaron
| | Posted on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 08:53 pm: |
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You're more than welcome ... I too am impressed by it's performance and like it's looks ... just pay attention to that potential leanness issue at mid and upper rpm's if you're using it with a CV! Your motor's health could depend on it.
AW
(who's much less impressed by Force's apparent attempt to cover up the info on this bowl vent issue) |
Loki
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 05:39 pm: |
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AW,
Just put a fresh dyno run with a modded spacer between the Forcewinder and carb. Now I am happy again. Got 77hp out of it with a nice curve till it topped out. Don't know the torque curve and rpm though. Just a hp number and a mph. Now I can play again....but just noticed a base gasket leak on the front cyl. might be time for some other mods as well. But my thanks go out to you on this issue on this intake. I was chasing it and chasing it to no avail. Now that one is solved.
Loki |
Lerider4
| | Posted on Friday, May 17, 2002 - 11:34 pm: |
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will I have the same problem if I put a forcewinder on my 2000 X1 with DDFI? |
Oldman
| | Posted on Saturday, May 18, 2002 - 05:28 pm: |
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just had a yost power tube installed at this service and now it doesn't seem like it's sucking in alot of air like it did before and a little better pickup on the throttle. one thing at a time. and the next thing will be the exhaust. |
Charley
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 04:26 am: |
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I see all kinds of positive postings about the Forcewinder but i never had any good pull on the dyno so far.
I did several bikes with the forcewinder with different exhaust systems both on Carb bikes as on X1 injected but none gives me a good reading, it doesn't matter what i do with the carb there's alway's a "upset" spot in the graph.
On injected bikes with or without a powercommander it's even worse.
I get the perfect with another filter or no filter but with the forcewinder in place the graph goes bad.
I think it's because the inner curve is to small wich creates a turbulence in front of the carb.
Anyone else with this ? |
Dart
| | Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 07:42 pm: |
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I just ground out the area at the float vent on my forcewinder. Temporarily, I have my stock exhaust on while my Daytona Boss pipe gets repaired. Where should I start when I re-jet? Currently I've got a 45 pilot jet, 195 main jet, and 2.5 turns out on the mixture screw.
Steve
'00 M2
Forcewinder
Thunderslide kit
Stock muffler(Temporary) |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 10:45 pm: |
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That's a good place to start. Put it on a dyno with an A/F sensor and see what it says. |
Loki
| | Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 11:19 pm: |
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Charley,
From personal experience, I speak....
2000 M2 with a Force Sidewinder(and a spacer for mounting) and Daytona Boss. Put it on a dyno and it was miserable, as in only 56 hp, with a curve that had so many pot-holes in it. Holes big enuff to drive a Mack thru them.
Put a A/F guage on the bike and could never get a decent jetting that it was happy with. Whack the throttle and it bottomed out the guage.
After the entertaining discussion on the float bowl vent.... Modified the 5/8" spacer so it was totally open around the vent(cut a big V into it rather than grind out the FMC part). The bike went instantly over rich. So much so I was looking at dropping down to a 190 and even had thoughts of a 185 for the hot parts of the year. Oh and put it on the dyno after modding the spacer. 77 and change with just a minor dip in the curve. All that was changed was opening the spacer up around the bowl vent.
In my case I feel I can blame it on the Sidewinder and the bowl vent issue. I had to over jet the carb to overcome the bowl vent and it cost me 21 hp.
nuff said, I learned a valuable lesson here. As have a few others. |
Charley
| | Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 10:40 am: |
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Blake
What 5/8"spacer ? there is no spacer in the kit's
and i had the same problem with the old style cast in floatbowl vent.
So i can imagine it will work better with a spacer because of the better radius into the carb.
How about the forcewinders on the X1 where you
don't have a bowlvent ?
I'm open for all suggestions |
Loki
| | Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 02:21 pm: |
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Charley,
The spacer was used by me(Loki). It was a by product of my choice of breather rerouting. It is a standard 5/8 inch spacer for a CV carb for mounting a Hyper-Charger. Kuryaken has all kinds of goodies if you look hard enuff.
I took it and cut out a 45 degree opening using the bowl vent hole. Then I bolted it to the elbow with a gasket and blended the to together. I wish I could show you some pics, but alas any chance of that went with the bike when it was stolen.
Ping me off line for more info.
Loki |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 09:06 pm: |
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Charley,
Have you read this? Scroll down to the 3/31/02 update that talks about the goofed up vent cavity in the newer Force intakes. It is an easy fix. |
Ptown
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 06:01 am: |
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Aron, Blake, Charley.
Its getting confusing. Is there any hickups with fitting the Forcewinder Air intake to the X1 with
the fuel injected system on. Will the bike perform outright better after installing and have it tuned in or is there other modifications also to be done. All questions about the Forcewinder is for the carburetor bikes and can´t get a clear picture of what pitfalls can be expected for the fuel injected setup.
Also if I do the fitment of the system at home will I be able to ride the bike to the shop for final tuning or whould you not recommend it.
thanks
Eugene |
Aaron
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 08:24 am: |
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Eugene, lots of people use them on injected bikes. I haven't personally put one on so I can't tell you what's involved, but it can't be that tough. Performance wise, again, my testing of the thing on injected bikes is limited. I would guess though that the results above are probably pretty applicable to the injection as well, but that's just a guess. Sorry I'm not more help. |