| Author | Message | ||
     Xb9er |
Blake Thanks for being straight and to the point. That is the kind of helpful information I was looking for from the many people more knowledgeable than I on this forum. Your arguments are very logical and do make sense to me. AMSOIL does give me the impression that they are snakeoil salesmen. Redline and Royal Purple I was not too sure about. But, couldn't one argue that Harley oils and lubes are snake oil too? I am sticking with Mobil 1. I got the limited viscosity information from the MSDS for those products. | ||
| Bomber |
XB I find it interesting that AMSOIL recommends what they do . . . . given my lack of education/knowledge on the topic, I gotta admit I smell a little snake oil . . .. . lots of folks LOVE AMSOIL . . .. that's great . . . I find their claims for their products drawing, certainly, but also know a number of fleet operators that could save boocoo cashdollarsamnerican by switching, if the claims were all true, yet, thay havn't I'm not saying their products are not good, or don't do what they say, I'm just repeating my grandpa's advice . . .if it looks too good to be true, it probobly is . ... that, and sporttrans has worked ok for me, the folks I know using mobil synth gear lube are happpier with it, so I'm gonna give it a try . . .. there are very few areas of human endevour in whcih absolute answers are available . . .this seems not to be one of them (smile) good riding, in any event | ||
| X1glider |
"The fact that a Buell revs 1500 rpm higher doesn't change the lube's duties. 1500 rpm is nothing." I meant to say "The fact that a Buell revs 1500 rpm higher than a big twin HD doesn't change the Sport-trans' duties. 1500 rpm is nothing." But you got the point. Yep, Blake, I guess what I said about full synth is a half truth. I know a bunch of those. To the best of my understanding from the techs who dyno bikes, a stock XL clutch is good to about 110 lb/ft of torque before slipping and requiring an extra plate (using sport trans). It is possible that a full synth has a lower coefficient of friction than a semi-synth which may cause the clutch to slip at a lower torque input. But I have no data to back that up. Neither do they as every bike they dyno is different and no 2 seemingly identical bikes off the assy line will perform the same either. One thing that I don't think any of us has looked into is how the lube affects the clutch friction material. For instance, while going thru a stream crossing in the Jeep, some water got into my auto tranny through the dipstick tube. The water made the friction material flake off. How would different type lubes affect the clutch material in our bikes? | ||
| Blake |
XB9eR, That ought to be good data then. Thanks for posting it. Bob, The effects of transmission lube, whatever base oil it is comprised of, on a wet clutch is a very valid concern. I rely on Mobil's integrity when they claim that their synthetic gear oil will not adversely affect wet clutch integrity or operation. I also rely on my experience and that of many many others. I would not put water into my Buell's transmission.  | ||
| Xb9er |
Corrections to 11/27/02 10:25 am Post of Oil Viscosities Blake. Thanks for calling into question the numbers I posted before. That V-Twin viscosity sure did not look right, the more I looked at it. So, I cross-checked what was on the MSDS with Mobil 1's own "Product Data Sheets" and found discrepancies. All the numbers listed below were taken from the Mobil 1 Product Data Sheets, not the MSDSs. I have also added Mobil 1's 10W-40 MX4T sportbike oil to the chart. ---------------------------------------Viscosity(cSt) -----Oil---------------------------40°C(104°F)----100°C(212°F) Mobil 1 75W-90 gear oil -----------106--------------15.2 Mobil 1 20W-50 V-twin ------------130--------------17.0 Mobil 1 10W-40 MX4T bike oil---- 86--------------13.8 Mobil 1 15W-50 car oil-------------125--------------17.4 H-D Sport Trans fluid--------------N/A-------------N/A Will someone from H-D or anyone who has had the stuff tested, please leak the full specs and properties of Sport Trans fluid! Thanks. | ||
| Blake |
Magnuson Moss Warranty-Federal Trade Commission Improvements Act (15 U.S.C. §§ 2301-2312) TITLE 15, CHAPTER 50, Sec. 2302, Subsection (c) Sec. 2302. - Rules governing contents of warranties I'll be sending a letter to HD/Buell asking them to please specify what generic grade(s) of transmission lubricant is required in my '97 Buell Cyclone. If they refuse, I'll be demanding a free quart of Sport Trans every 5,000 miles. Let's put an end to the Sport Trans confusion. I can't believe it's gone on this long. | ||
| Xb9er |
That's good. I am going to finish writing the letter I started back in September after I went to two dealers asking this question and those idiots said it would "void your warranty." It completely boggles my mind that this information is not out there! I am a returning motorcyclist who has not ridden a bike since about 15 years ago. I am also completely new to Buells. I did not know Buells even existed until last year. My first bike in 15 years is the Firebolt which I bought August 12, 2002. I bought it because it is a beautiful looking sportbike, modern, stylish, innovative, and with the size, power and handling that I feel suits me just fine. After 2500+ miles on it, I wouldn't have any other bike in that price range. The only thing I have yet to complain about is the fact that I have the whole Harley-Davidson, H-D/Buell dealership BS to deal with. It's much worse than I thought it would be going in. This is all the information H-D offers about the Primary/Trans fluids for Big Twins and Sportsters: Hours and hours of searching here, on the Sportster Home Page, and elsewhere yielded only anecdotes from people who swear they know you should use, in no particular order, 80W gear oil, 85W gear oil, 75W-90 gear oil, 80W-90 gear oil, 15W-40, 10W-30, 15W-30, 20W-50, ATF, and sprinkle in a little moly powder for good measure. The majority of the H-D Cult say "the Motor Company know what they are doing and if they say use Sport Trans, I'm going to use nothing but Sport Trans, period!" Are these people serious??? Sorry about the rant. Mike. | ||
| Court |
Mike: It's not a "rant". You have a legitimate question. You stated it succinctly. You deserve an answer. Many (an admittedly "subjective" term) Buell owners have been asking this for some time. Frankly, I can claim to be among those, when I had a stable of Harley's, who claimed "who wants it to break less than the folks who warrant the thing" and use the HD branded stuff. Buell owners, and this is no secret to the “powers that be” tends to be a bit more techie, inquisitive and, in the good old spirit of Missouri, have a "show me" attitude. Frankly, I use whatever the heck Tat sends me and tells me to use. I base it on the fact that folks much smarter than I; your Blake and Aaron style "gear heads" (pun intended) have done my research for me. In the instant example, I'm more offended by the "neeehner..neeehner...we're not gonna tell you" 'tude. Let's see what we can wrangle out of them. Court | ||
| Sarodude |
Blake- Think some sort of petition might be in order? A PDF or Word doc or RTF doc and a handwritten Name, Address, and signature. I'd be on board... -Saro | ||
| Ryan_M2 |
Is there a direct correlation between a measurement of viscosity at any given temperatures (in units such as the above mentioned centistokes), and the nominal weight of an oil? I guess another way to say this is will all 10W-40 oils (or any other ones of your choosing) all have the same viscosities listed on their MSDS? How are oil weights measured or determined? Ryan | ||
| Waveguides |
Some assorted links I've found to assimilate the data thats out there on oil: http://www.herguth.com/ (real science) http://www.pecuniary.com/faq/harley-davidson.html http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ http://www.twocreeks.net/toby/oil_filters.shtml Enjoy... | ||
| Knievel |
Hey you can go to CASTROL.COM click on motorcycles Go from there and you can click on a question board where they can anwser all kinds of questions about what you should use and when you should use it. | ||
| Toastertan |
Oil Filter question: I'm a new kid and trying to find out what auto filter substitutes are for the $13 HD filter on my S3T. The only one I've been able to glean from this list is Ford FL-1A. Are there others? Long or short? Stephen in Seattle | ||
| Cowboy |
I have thousands of miles on the ford filter with good luck. And it is on the shelf @ walmarts any time. plus the extra volume is nice in summer to cool your engine. | ||
| Ryan_M2 |
It has been a while since I've thought much about Ford filters for a 5.0L (I sold my '94 Mustang GT in '97), but I seem to recall that there was a long version of the FL-1A. It might have been the FL-1HP. Also, Fram had an HP series filter for replacing the FL-1A. It was also longer than the FL-1A. It might have been the HP-1, but since I don't have a Pegasus Racing catalog handy, I can't say for sure. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Just about every filter I had here at the house would fit and look pretty good. The filter from my 95 Saturn SC2 and my 2002 Sienna minivan both fit fine, and are just a little bigger then the HD filter. The filter from my (old sold POS) 96 Ford Windstar minivan fit as well, and is about the same width as the stock unit, but about 2 inches longer. The Ford FL1A is bigger around, and longer. The local autozone has Bosche filters for all the above sizes that appear to be of very good quality, and are painted black. Thats what I have been using with good luck, the big FL1A in particular looks like it was designed for the bike. | ||
| Rick_A |
I read most of the stuff posted here concerning check balls and filter bypass valves. The check ball is only there to prevent oil from the tank draining into and filling the crankcase when the engine is shut off. The bypass valve is not there to prevent a filter element from blowing out. Its only purpose is to save the engine if the filter element should get clogged. Cut a filter in half and take a look at it. It bypasses the oil flow around the filter element. Where do you guys come up with some of this stuff? Neither are there to regulate the flow either...that's been engineered into the oil pump, see? That's why the scavenge side of the pump is around three times larger. | ||
| Blake |
Rick, The bypass valve does both; it protects the engine by maintaining the flow of lubricant and secondarily by also preventing the filter media from tearing and contaminating/damaging the engine. The pump is a positive displacement type, meaning that no matter the pressure required, it will pump the same volume of oil. So if the filter were to become clogged, it would still force the oil through it to the point of rupturing the filter media or breaking its bond to the can; either that or pop the oil lines or strip the pump's drive gear(s). Do you understand now why the actuation of the bypass valve is independent of the pressure at the inlet? Here's a diagram to illustrate the scenario...  The above schematic diagrams illustrate the concept of the bypass valve; they do not attempt to show the actual design/configuration of the oil filter or bypass valve. I agree about the valves not regulating flow. | ||
| Rick_A |
Sure Blake...but a high pressure valve on a lower pressure oil pump still presents a serious flow restriction. inlet pressure pushes on the valve trying to open it when the force exerted by the inlet pressure exceeds the sum of the forces exerted by the spring pressure plus the outlet pressure, the bypass valve opens. So, the inlet pressure has to overcome both spring pressure and the outlet pressure. In our engines the oil is circulated through the oil filter by positive inlet pressure alone. There is no "outlet pressure" sucking the oil out the other side. The return feed draws oil from the bottom of the crankcase and gearcase alone. That pressure has no effect on the flow through the filter. The only reason for the valve is to prevent oil starvation for a clogged filter, period. Most likely the oil would puke out of every possible orifice before the element gets blown out. I know of one instance where a car filter on a bike got clogged. The filter seal got blown before anything happened to the element. The pressure should never even come close to blowing out the filter media. If it did your engine would probably already be lunched. | ||
| Rick_A |
There's a reason Harley used the spring rate they did on the thing. It's best to stick to it. | ||
| Lornce |
Rick-A budd, The 'outlet pressure' Blake refers to isn't a vacuum force drawing oil into the motor, it's just the resultant pressure of the inlet oil after it passes through the restriction of the filter media. I think I see the source of your confusion in the above diagram. The outlet pressure 'arrows' may cause you to imagine what I think you've described above if you're not familiar with the terms. Course, ya could tell me to blow it out my ear if I'm wrong...  I'm pretty sure the filter media area of these filters is more than ample. They're about twice as long as similar HD filters I've seen on other bikes. In a worst case scenario on a car, they'd likely continue to pass oil effectively well after 20k miles of operation, likely even more. In 2-3k miles on a bike between changes, they aren't likely to get too contaminated.... Relax pal, Lornce | ||
| Rick_A |
I'm just saying it's not wise to exceed the parameters built into the oiling system, that's all. Sure, car filters work fine, bla bla bla...unless it'd get clogged. I wouldn't wanna put that kind of strain on my oiling system. Sometimes an additive or non compatible oil will plug a filter medium. Different filters have different materials, filtering ability, flow restriction, etc. Some car filters flow in the opposite direction...so the valve is orientated to run opposite. Do you know which way your car filter flows? That's what happened to the guy I mentioned above. To me, there's too many variables to just spin on whatever works. It may never happen...but you never know. A few techs I know have blown a few motors with cheap filters. After buying a few engines you better believe they use only the manufacturer recommended filter. You never know. It's HIGHLY unlikely but there is that chance. It's cheap insurance. The engineers chose a filter that works optimally for the application. It is overpriced to an extent to buy a H-D filter but to me a few bucks means little. There are long H-D filters available as well. Unless someone found the EXACT filter for cheaper under a different name, I wouldn't trust it. Anyone know of one? Hypothetically in a completely clogged filter the "outlet pressure" would be nothing over the filter medium, wouldn't it? Then your oiling system operating at low PSI at, say idle, has to overcome, let's say, a 60PSI rated automotive release valve...one designed for a wet sump system that's designed to handle such pressures...where in your Buell engine you might have leaking seals and oil lines...and an overly taxed pump. I wouldn't want that in my engine. The problem is the same as RPM increases. I understand that when the filter still has some flow the oil coming through relieves some of that pressure...but when it's a higher than specified valve pressure the same basic scenario is present. Additionally, the speed of the oil after the valve...which isn't open as far at a given point as the OEM specified valve...would increase and the pressure would drop. Is that a good thing? I wouldn't imagine so. I'm going mostly by what I've been told by people who've been in the industry most of their lives. I happen to agree with it. It's just the principal of the thing. I basically won't put anything in my engine that's not meant for it specifically. I am relaxed. It's just how I feel. I don't care much what ya run in YOUR engine...but I'm stickin' to what it's meant to | ||
| Blake |
Rick, HD filters are the same as automotive filters. In fact they are automotive filters. Check out the photos and commentary posted here. As to the workings of the bypass valve... It is an easy misconception to have that they are sensitive to system pressure. They are in no way sensitive to system pressure (pressure from the pump). For example, say that in a 60 psi automotive engine the bypass valve opens when the outlet pressure drops to 58 psi. Put that filter on a Buell with 20 psi from the pump and the same bypass valve opens when the outlet pressure drops to 18 psi. It is the difference between inlet and outlet pressure (differential pressure) that actuates the valve. Anything more than a few psi would collapse the filter media. The seal you mentioned is exposed to the difference in pressure between the oil pump and atmosphere, so it sees the entire system pressure. That is much different than just the delta/differential pressure across the element. I use HD filters. I think tomorrow I'll go to the auto parts store and purchase some filters for dissection. | ||
| Buelliedan |
Blake, See if you can find a filter that is the exact same dimension as the Dyna filter if you could. I use a slip on oil cooler and the Amsoil filters that I was using are just a bit too small in diameter. | ||
| Lornce |
Rick-A, he say: "I am relaxed. It's just how I feel. I don't care much what ya run in YOUR engine...but I'm stickin' to what it's meant to" Word to yo mothah. Lornce | ||
| Rick_A |
I understand that part of it Blake...but among different applications do they or do they not use different spring pressures?...requiring them to operate at a higher pressure differential. Maybe that's where I may be wrong. That's something I was told long ago. It'd make sense to me. | ||
| Rick_A |
Thinking on it some...it makes sense a that higher pressure application might use a valve actuated by a higher pressure differential. Surely not anywhere 60 PSI as I now realize...but I mean...there's a perforated metal shroud around the outside of the filter element for a reason. Could it be to prevent collapse of the filter element?...nawww  I'd like to know for sure, though | ||
| Blake |
The perforated metal shroud around the outside may help to support the paper, but mainly it protects against really big nasty chunks of debris damaging the filter media and getting into the engine. The oil flows from the outside to the inside, so a metal shroud on the outside isn't going to keep the paper from callapsing/tearing under pressure. Even on the inside, we are talking about paper here forpetesake. How much pressure do you think paper can withstand???  As to what you were told... Was the propagator of that tale working in a Harley shop? Possibly the same guy who warns everyone against using synthetic oil? Some actual factual information to ponder (with thanks to Jprovo for providing it)...  SuperTech Filter Parts . . . . . . . . . . . Buell Filter Parts  SuperTech Filter Bypass Valve . . . . . . . . . Buell Filter Bypass Valve  SuperTech Filter Bypass Valve Parts . . . . . Buell Filter Bypass Valve Parts According to James, dissector of the above filters... Further clarification by Prof Stack...
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| Lornce |
Went to Canadian Tire last night and picked up a couple of jugs of Mobil 1 synthetic, 15-50 for the Buells and 10-30 for the Saturn (maybe one reason I hate winter so much... ) and a filter for the Saturn.... While changing the oil and filters on the bikes I noticed the filter on the S1 is exactly the same as the filter I just bought for the Saturn! Exactly the same dimensionally, exactly. Now, I've been using Quaker State QS2870A filters on the S3 and it's about twice the size of the filter that just came off the S1 (the S1's PO had ALL work done at a Buell dealer, and I mean ALL) and I'm thinkin' to myself... "There's no way anybike a mine's gonna' run around with that little ol oil filter protectin it's lilly white innards..." And I'm startin to feel a little self righteous about it... and it feels gooood... so THIS is the attraction.... I'm not used to self righteous.... So anyway, if anything, this big ass green filter affords a greater margin of security with additional filter midia area.... annnnd additional oil capacity. And I think the green can looks cool. Lornce  | ||
| Sarodude |
I was looking at JProvo's cool dissection of the filters and was wondering something... Do the XB / Blast run low-ish oil pressures like the XL bikes? (compared to other vehicles in general) If so, would the lesser number of pleats make for easier or more difficult flow - or no difference at all? -Saro |
