| Author | Message | ||
     Tnxber |
OK all, I have been looking through these posts and didn't find one applicable so now I am asking you the general Buell public for help!! I was riding my 2003 XB9 home from the store and she just died right there in the road! I tried to crank it....the engine would not turn over. I tried to cycle the key on and off....nothing! Heres the kicker.. no blown fuses (at least in the fuse box and dont know where any others are) When you turn the key on, the needles do not sweep (I assume this is the ECM doing a bit test?), no fuel pump activation, no nothing. Here's what I've done to date: inspected the wiring for chaffs, tested the battery for capacitance, its good. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I hate the thought of taking it to a dealer and getting that deer in the headlights look when the tell me how much it is to fix....you know what I mean right?? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Do you mean test the battery for voltage? Start with the battery terminals, clean and fasten tightly, and see if that makes a difference. We should be able to help you fully diagnose this with minimal fuss. Start with an inspection of the battery terminals, and tell us the voltage across the terminals, and any different behavior after cleaning. We can go from there... | ||
| Buell12hundo |
thats the best way to start any electrical job at the battery and then the terminals Ty | ||
| Buellistic |
Tnxber: The best way to stay off the side of the road with a no start problem is by doing preventive maintance ... "ie": Every TWO(2) years replace the battery as this stops a lot of strange problems ... You stated you have a 2003, so adding 2 you get "2005" and battery up-date time ... Have a 97S3T and have never been on the side of the road with electrical problems !!! In BUELLing LaFayette | ||
| Tnxber |
I appreciate the comments thus far! I did mean to say I performed a capacitance test of the battery to determine if the battery is still capable of holding the proper amount of capacitance at the rated 12 volts as well as checking the battery voltage. they were both good. | ||
| Tnxber |
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, I did clean the terminals when I check out the battery and installation. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I think we are getting confused by terms here... probably just a language issue... Let me try and establish a clear framework for everyone to communicate. Capacitance is measured in microfarads, and would be a fairly useless measure of a battery. While a battery is a type of capacitor, the nature of a battery makes most "capacitance" measurements useless for the problem at hand. Voltage is the potential energy measured in Volts across the battery terminals. Current is a measurement of the number of electrons that can be transferred, and is measured in amps. Batteries might be rated in terms of cranking amps, which is how much current they can deliver for a burst of time. Total power, or total capacity, of a battery is the current that can be delivered, multiplied by the time that the battery can deliver it. It is measured in Amp Hours. For example, a typical AA NiMh rechargable battery can deliver 2.2 amps for 1 hour, or 1.1 amps for 2 hours, or .55 amps for 4 hours, etc. With the terms out of the way, this is a first good and easy to perform test.... 1) Put your MultiMeter on DC Volts, and measure the voltage across the battery terminals with the bike completely powered off. Tell us the exact voltage, i.e. 12.8 volts. 2) Now turn on the ignition, and repeat the measurement. Tell us the exact voltage then. 3) If you can get the bike started (jump it, bump it, or trickle charge it), do this again, and measure the DC voltage as accurately as possible (hopefully something like 13.24 volts). Re-measure and record it once every 20 seconds for a couple minutes. Tell us the 10 or so readings. Those are easy tests that will give us a good starting point for further diagnosis. | ||
| Tnxber |
Good Morning, and thanks for the comments. The "key off" battery voltage read 12.6 between the terminals. When the key in on the voltage was 11.8 The bike will neither roll start nor turn over on it's own and start. I tried that while it was coasting down the other day when it died during the ride. When the key is turned on, there are no lights on the dash illuminated at all, and the needles do not do the "sweep" And just to add, I did try to use a charger with a "start" function to see if it would turn over and nothing happens. I do however hear a click in the fuse/relay panel area. I tried moving the relays to different positions to see if one of them were bad, and nothing at all changes. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I don't have the chart in front of me, but that voltage sounds way low. I can check the service manual when I get home, I believe it has a chart. The next easiest test to run given the current condition would probably be the the stator resistance test. Disconnect the plug, and on the wire going to the stator measure the resistance between each of the pins to each other, and between each of the pins to ground. Tubers have 2 pins, XB's have three. So for an XB, measure resistance in ohms for the following: pin 1 to pin 2 pin 2 to pin 3 pin 1 to pin 3 pin 1 to ground pin 2 to ground pin 3 to ground If any of those first three are high (exact values are in your service manual, but I believe anything over 1 ohm means something died), the stator or wiring is toast. If any of the last three are low (below infinity), either the stator or it's associated wiring is toast. I am NOT saying your stator is the problem (Hi Tramp!), just that it might be, and that is probably the next easiest thing to check when the bike won't start. Then slap the charger on the battery over night, and see if the bike can start tomorrow. If we can get it to start, there are other easy tests we can do. (Message edited by reepicheep on September 07, 2005) | ||
| Buellistic |
Lets cut the "BUELLschitte" and buy a new BATTERY !!! In BUELLing | ||
| Reepicheep |
If it would just not start some morning, I would suspect battery, but to just die while running, I suspect stator or voltage regulator, or connections therein. My battery on my M2 lasted 5 years minimum. I replaced it as I was paranoid, it was still working. That absorbed glass matt is great stuff, and the Harley price for it is quite fair. The charging system for Buells is full loss system. Whatever is not absorbed by lights, coils, or the battery is simple dumped to ground. The stator sees an identical load regardless if it has a new battery, an old battery, or a crescent wrench welded across the terminals. | ||
| Mikej |
Speaking of Crescent wrenches welded across terminals and such, he did say he could hear some clicking somewhere. Were it me, not being comfortably electrically inclined, I'd follow the wires and see where they go and look for shorts or leaks or breaks. It's a little different on a 'tuber than an XB frame'd bike so I'll stop here. (Note: "leaks" relates to people using water as an analogy for explaining how electricity works, but personally I'd rather get wet than shocked, might be just me though ... ) | ||
| Reepicheep |
The clicking is either the relay or the starter, and is normal behavior for a battery that lacks sufficient power to turn over the starter. | ||
| Tnxber |
Let me run one more thing to you all: When I took off on the very short ride that ended in waiting on the side of the road, the bike faultered (by this, I mean it cut out momentarily and regained power) a few times or so then seemed to run fine. I dont believe for any real reason whatsoever that the battery is the culprit... absolutely no indication for that outcome. Has anyone had ECM troubles or sensor troubles that made the bike inoperative? Does anyone have a wiring schematic of the bike they can email me?? | ||
| Tnxber |
Reepi... since you seem to be the person with the most technical input besides suggesting to throug parts at the bike, I thank you for your help. I will check the stator wiring as you suggested. I know as you stated that the relay clicking is indicative of a low battery condition, I tried it with the battery charged (all day at 3amps deepcycle) along with the charger hooked up and set on the high power "START" setting. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Huh! So it still didn't turn over, huh? Lafeyette has been fixing Harley motors since before I was born, so I ain't saying he is wrong, just saying it hasn't been prooven right yet  Road thing had some insight into the starter relay on a tuber, it is probably the same on an XB. Perhaps that is having trouble. That, a bad connection on one of the battery leads / ground strap, or a bad battery is the only thing I could think of that would keep the thing from even turning over once you have given the battery a chance for a good charge... Hmmmm... Well, if the stator plug is easy enough to get at, you might as well do that test. That will eliminate an unknown. | ||
| Buellistic |
OLD Harley-Davidson PREVENTIVE MAINTENCE PROGRAM, "MAKE SURE ALL ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS ARE TIGHT"and before "TYE WRAPS", the use of TAPE to hold wires from constantly getting the WIGGLE TEST from vibration ... ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS ARE VERY HARD TO FIND SOMETIMES, "BUT" very "DUMB" WHEN YOU DO FIND THEM !!! | ||
| Mikej |
Tnxber, Just want to clarify something that may be leading some beyond where the problem is. On the first post you mentioned there is nothing, no needle sweep, nothing when the key is turned on. So just to clarify the symptoms: 1. Does the headlight or tail light turn on when the key is turned on? 2. Does the horn beep when the key is turned on? 3. Do the turn signals work when the key is turned on? If the answer to all three is a no then I'm leaning to either a faulty key switch, a defused fusable link (if the XB's have one somewhere in their system to protect against dead shorts), or a bad connection somewhere in the main battery power path between the battery and the bike's electrical system. I don't know all the symptoms of a shorted stator where the wires rub bare under the edge of the clamping bar. Do the lights still work under this failure mode if anyone knows? Please provide an answer to my three questions above, that may lead Reep or others to your problem and a solution. | ||
| Izzinya |
check the cables themselves not for good connections but continuity .... the cables can be bad on the inside have seen it more than once Izzinya  | ||
| Dagwood |
Voltage Regulator? edit/ is the bike clicking when you push the start button? (Message edited by dagwood on September 09, 2005) | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Since you had the battery on for a full charge, have you since checked the battery to make certain that it took the charge? IIRC the MINIMUM voltage for the ECM to operate is 11.6 IF the voltage drops below that point the bike will shut off to save the ECM. If you have a static (key off) voltage of 12.8 and then an active (key on) voltage of 11.8, the moment you touch the starter button, the voltage will drop below 11.6 and nothing will happen. | ||
| Sparky |
Looking at a XB9R schematic the entire electrical system except for the starter cable circuit goes through a 30 A main fuse. This fuse is not in the fuse block. It should be found by following the lighter wire from the battery + terminal. Check this fuse and the condition of the wires leading from it. | ||
| Easyflier |
I posted somewhere here about electrical gremlins that affected my bike and the headlights. You didn't mention how many miles or what part of the country you ride it in but with my XB it was the electrical connections under the fuse box. They cleaned them up and I was good to go again. If you ride in less than ideal conditions (salt air or during the winters) your problem might be the same as mine was. | ||
| Tnxber |
Hey all? Thanks for the input, I've been on the road this week and will be able to look at the things you mentioned then. | ||
| Tnxber |
Then, as in this weekend.. | ||
| Opto |
My 2cents, if the needles on the instruments don't sweep then there is no power to the ecm. Double check all your fuses. Suggest you buy one new relay (they are cheap) and try it in each of the 3 possible positions. | ||
| Tnxber |
To all who have posted, thanks! the Buell is now running...it wasn't the battery. There was an intermittant ground to the ECM after recent paint work, a little cleaning of ground contact points and it was as good as gold.  | ||
| Hkwan |
Hmm.... that grounding thing might be my issue as well. Which Grounding point are you talking about? the one in the back of the fairing stay (below the gauges)? I have VERY similar issue as yours except one thing - the needles would sweep AFTER the key turns back to the "off" position. | ||
| Buellistic |
BUELLers: These bikes VIBRATE !!! As a "PREVENTIVE MAINTAINCE" thing you should check the tightness on SCREW DOWN/BOLT connections ... So your bike does not fail the "WIGGLE TEST" while your are out RIDING in the middle of no where, TIE WRAP ALL YOUR WIREING SO IT DOES NOT WIGGLE !!! In BUELLing LaFayette | ||
| Hkwan |
I usually use blue locktite. I will pay more attention to the wiggle test next time when I mess with the wires. So would you know where the grounding point for the ECM? I see a ground point underneath the fairing stay in the front with severl ground wires attached to it. Is there a different one for the ECM? | ||
| Reepicheep |
There's a quote for the garage wall if I ever saw one | ||
| Japbikeboy |
Replace your relays. I have seen exactly the same situation on a 2003 XB9R. The tech looking at it was so confused. Then by happenstance we found the relays were bad. A similar problem happened on my personal XB and all it turned out to be was the relays. These relays are the key to the XB line. Good Luck | ||
| Hkwan |
Japbikeboy, wondering if you ever found out what caused the relays on both of said bikes to go? What was done right before the relay went out? After relays replacement, everything went back to good? | ||
| Japbikeboy |
Yes, after replacing all the relays the bike started and ran fine. On the customers bike, he had disconnected lights, changed his turn signals to LED's with out a load equalizer, and took his headlights apart for some reason. We were seriously ready to charge the customer for a new wiring harness. We checked continuity through the wires where available. Checked the fuel pump, but at that point we were shaking our magic sticks. Literally by just some dumb luck we found the relays to be the problem. We had even talked to HD tech services and they had no idea. On my personal bike the factory installed a Sportster battery--which is the same dimensions as the Buell battery but the terminals are swapped which caused the polarities to be backwards. This was the root cause of my relay problems. Again, once the relays were changed both bikes ran fine. Good luck! | ||
| Opto |
Hkwan, There are 2 grounding points for the ecm and one big one for the battery, on a Lightning model the 2 ecm grounds are midway under the seat, one on each side. |
