| Author | Message | ||
     Bandirola |
Downtown HD in Tukwilla, WA charged me 1hr shop time which came out to $102 after tax. This was today. I think I will order the kit from american sportbike in the near future. | ||
| Buellistic |
Remember this: "ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS THINGS IN THE WORLD IS A HARLEY-DAVIDSON TECHNICIAN WORKING ON A BUELL !!!" In BUELLing LaFayette | ||
| Bandirola |
The tech let me come back and watch while he ran the program. Took all of ten minutes and appears to be very simple. Anybody know if the American Sport Bike kit is the same as the one HD uses? Dave | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
The H-D Scanalizer can be used on the Tube framed Buells only. The XB's require use of the Digital Technician. That tool takes just a little longer than than the scanalizer, because it requires data be entered. I don't want to get into a great debate as to what polices each dealer puts in place. But I want to think most want all Buells to run well and feel that everybody wins when they do. If you were on the road and for some reason needed your TP and or AFV reset most would do what they could to get you on your way. But if you purchased and installed something from outside that required a technician to be assigned to hook up your bike to the DT, why would you not expect a dealer to recover the time it takes to do that??? ... On the other hand I have seen many small item such as these never be charged because the customer has a good relationship with their dealer and buys what they can from the dealers parts department. The debate about labor rates is another discussion for another time. But all dealerships are are not created equal and unfortunately while some Service Managers may lose sight of the fact that the first part of their title is Service. I think most want to do what is fair and it may cost more to process a single 10 -15 min charge than it's worth. But That"s Just My Opinion. ... Terry | ||
| Al_lighton |
To answer the other question, no, the American Sport Bike product for resetting the TPS is the Technoresearch VDSTS SW, not the Digital Tech. Near as I know, the Digital Tech is not for sale and you couldn't afford it if it was. The Digital Tech has a few functions that VDSTS currently doesn't have (AFV display is one, but that is coming soon to VDSTS and the SW updates are downloadable free). But VDSTS has some features that the digital tech doesn't have. I can run VDSTS on my PDA, so I can keep it in my tankbag on trips (I do anyway, its my GPS receiver too). Hook it up, diagnose problems on the road. The PC version also supports hooking up a wideband O2 sensor for air fuel monitoring. Seems hard to justify an hour charge for a TPS reset, but 1/2 hour by the time you've rolled a bike in, hooked it up, performed the function, written it up, billed it, etc. seems reasonable and typical. That said, I'll do it for free for customers at American Sport Bike. But I'm not a service shop, I do it just to be friendly to our local customers. Al | ||
| Sokota |
I think the Buell fun factor would probably double to be a "local customer" of American Sport Bike .  | ||
| Al_lighton |
yea, but not because of us...because we're in San Diego, where the weather is always perfect...75 and sunny today, just like every day. You get to ride both halves of the year here, therefore, double the fun! And we do have some kick ass roads in the mountains to the east too...and a gadjillion acres to rampage on dirt bikes on just to the east...Yup, double the fun out here! | ||
| Bandirola |
I am planning on switching to the race ecm soon, so another tps reset would be required. I already have a forcewinder, wileyco muffler and Andrews cams of unknown size (installed by previous owner) on my 00 s3t. With the race ecm are any other tweaks/adjustments possible with the asb unit? Dave | ||
| Al_lighton |
The only other tweaking with the VDSTS SW in addition to the TPS reset are the other tests, one of which is the AFV reset. NOt really a peformance tweak. The DirectLink SW includes the TPS and AFV reset capability, and it lets you go in and alter your map. But it's a fair amount pricier at $348 (SW +Key) than the $195 VDSTS package. With different cams, the ability to tune the ECM to match may be worthwhile. But tuning a tube frame ECM is not something we've done with the package yet, we've been focusing on the XBs for the time being. But I did provide Technoresearch with the tube frame race and stock ECMs in order for them to add the capability to the SW, so there isn't any reason to believe that it isn't possible to tweak those. Stay tuned, we'll know soon. Al | ||
| Giu |
Opsss,Al,please,would you help me? Me and many friends of mine wish buy n.1 complete DL kit (please,intend complete of everything you think will help us to do it) to tune up n.1 ecm of our xb12.We first experiment with 1 kit and later everyone will buy his kit. Does the kit can be used by us on our PC or it needs of some particular software that only Buell dealers have?I mean,is it requested some Buell dealer intervent to make DL works right? Will you delivery in the kit a manual where people will find how correctly use DL,what to do and what NOT TO DO ? Did you discovered if stock ecm and race ecm give the same result? The kit is valid both for xb12 and xb9? Thank you | ||
| Therenardo9r |
Hi GIU, Al will you give give you more perfect info...in the meantime I can honestly say that the DL software if perfect I bought the works from them.. It all works on a PC for both xb12 and 9 s and R that is vdsts The DL software works great...but you need to follow the exact procedure for TPS reset that Al wrote... Also you will often find that the idle screw is not enough lubricated where the end screw is on the admission pipe...and you may have to remove the air filter base including the inlet temp sensor (which you will put back on for reset) to get to that... I did reset the TPS on a few bikes now and often had that problem... NO buell dealer is needed...but if yours is a great professional you certainly can get advice from him... If you do not set up the TPS right it will alter the whole of the engine running performance and you may not have the fuel/spark at the right time...!!! | ||
| Buellistic |
"IMO" is the FUEL INJECTION is the best system, "BUT" if you can not MAP it yourself and FIX it correctly it is a "BUELLschitte System" when you have to rely on TECHNICIANS(dealerships)... When "i" get rid of my 97S3T and get a FUEL INJECTED Model the first thing will to be PRODUCT IMPROVED will be to a SYSTEM "i" can tune myself !!! | ||
| Al_lighton |
You won't need anything other than DirectLink and a Key for the particular ECM. The ability to reset both the TPS AND the AFV is in the latest version (NOT on the download site yet). There are still some issues with the SW as of this moment, but the programmers at Technoresearch are burning the midnight oil to get it fixed (and I'm doing the same testing it). I'd hoped they'd be fixed by the end of this weekend, but there is still a couple bugs. And as of this moment, we're still not 100% sure that you can get the same results with a stock ECM as you can with a race ECM. We'll know very soon. The tuning guide I am writing will include many helpful tips of what to do, and what not to do. I will include it with the SW when I sell it. But I'm not providing that guide to Technoresearch like I did the TPS reset procedure. I am helping them clean up their quick start guide, however. Al | ||
| Formerslimjim |
Al, Can your system also modify the spark curve? If not, wouldn't the race ECM be a better starting point to tune from? | ||
| Al_lighton |
It can modify the spark curves, independently for both cylinders. It appears that the stock ECM spark table and race ECM spark table are only different in the values. The RPM and throttle position break points are identical. What we don't know yet is whether the algorithms that the race and stock ECM use for both the Fuel and spark tables are the same. If they aren't, it may very well still be true that the race ECM is a better starting point. We were getting some ambiguous readings on this when we compared the dyno runs on Terry's bike with a stock ECM, and my identically configured bike with a race ECM, running the same map. So my ECM went to Vallejo today so that Terry can plug it in to his bike on back-to-back runs so that we can figure out once and for all if the race ECM is the best place to start. Terry will test that configuration Wednesday. Al | ||
| Diablobrian |
Thanks for going the extra mile Al. It is appreciated, | ||
| Bandirola |
Two questions: 1. What is the actual difference between the stock ecm and the race ecm and what effect would it have on my 00s3 with force intake, wilyco exhaust, and andrews cams? 2. Does anybody in the Seattle/Tacoma area have one of the American Sport Bike tuning kits they would be willing to share/demo for me once I get my race ecm? | ||
| Bandirola |
Just bumping this back to the top in hopes of info on what the actual difference is between the stock and race ecm before I spend the $200. | ||
| Al_lighton |
The algorithms are similar, though there may be some minor differences, Buell doesn't publish those details so the info the public has is only anecdotal. But both work with a closed loop/open loop system where the AFV is set during closed loop, and that value scales the open loop map. The biggest difference is the values in the lookup tables. Both will hold the A/F value at 14.7:1 in closed loop, but the open loop map in the Race ECM is tuned to the more open pipe. The timing is different in each, with a more radical advance into redline on the race ECM than the stock. We have been focusing our efforts on the XBs for now. Once released for XBs, we'll do more testing on tube frame models. We haven't started selling the SW in open form yet, though Technoresearch has probably sold a few. I won't sell it until I know it's working right, and it is very very close. Al | ||
| Therenardo9r |
Hi Al how much higher in RPM does the Race ECM take you ? Gaimberto seems to say that for the fuel map going higher in rpm than the spark map 8024 against 6524 is the way the Buell ECM gives out information...Does this seem possible to you ?...or maybe something got lost in the translation when I talked to him... In regards to using wide oxygen sensors...is there some literature in order for me to get the feel of how I should be tuning my engine ? Should I get only the one or a couple ? Are there exact figures for closed and open loop rpm range for the XB9R ECM and do they match the Direct Link Scale range ? I know that this is many questions, but now that I have bought and received the Direct Link software I would like to use it in a decent manner, as all I have done until now, is removed (while learning) the rev limit. You may check my web site at http://buelltuning.free.fr and see the techno web site as it is starting to look like something.. On the Direct Link Software I have..2.40.63L I have a TPS reset setting but not the AFV yet..maybe you are running a later version !!! a bientôt Fab (Message edited by therenardo9r on February 02, 2006) | ||
| Al_lighton |
Fabrice, The race ECM doesn't take you any higher. The upper RPM limits are the same, the spark and fuel table values up until the max are different, but the actual row and column labels are the same. Giamberto was correct, the RPM values in the fuel and spark map are different. But they are the same between the race or stock ECM. In order to properly tune, you'd want to put a bung for the wideband sensor to the front and the rear header pipes. But you don't need to do it simultaneously, you could tune the front first, with a plug on the rear header bung, with the modify front and rear simultaneously option selected. After the front is tuned, you could move the wideband sensor to the rear and fine tune the rear cylinder. I haven't done it this way yet, but I'm sure it is quite possible. We don't have the details of exactly what constitutes open and closed loop operation. Buell doesn't divulge that information. DirectLink has no concept or knowledge of that, it doesn't care. You aren't modifying algorithms, only table values. You will do all your modifications with the main O2 sensor disconnected so that you are by definition in open loop across the entire RPM and throttle range. When you're done tuning, you'll re-hook up the O2 sensor and the bike will go back into closed loop mode per whatever the Buell algorithms are. And when the open loop response is compared against the table values as part of the AFV setting algorithm, it will match well if you've done a good job tuning to 14.7:1 over the closed loop domain and the AFV will stay at approximately 100. Download the current version, it has the AFV reset capability, as well as the Accel/Decel Table functions supposedly working. We just started testing with it today, so I can't speak for how good this release is at this time. Al Al | ||
| Therenardo9r |
HI Al And thank you for all your answers and tips, I will soon start drilling holes...!! I have one last question... When I went the first time to my ex harley dealer, he disconnect the white cable going to the ecm. Should this cable be reconnected ? I downloaded the new Techno versions and it seems that they included my french translations into the VDSTS....Unreal ... As for Accel decel table available in the direct link...(Be sitted for the stupid question) ... should it work with some kind of G force Sensor ? I told you this was going to be a bad one ! Thank you again so much for your help in all these matters...be sure that at some stage I will religiously transcribe to my XB web site. Best regards fabrice | ||
| Donutclub |
Al, Does the race ECM change the air to fuel ratio that the "closed loop" tries to maintain? I was under the impression that it richened up the air to fuel mixture. | ||
| Al_lighton |
Fabrice, It doesn't matter for your ECM. That wire is related to the servo for XB12's, but it isn't used on XB9s, or on Race ECM equipped XB12's. We are just starting to test the Accel and decel functions. Without having the Buell algorithms for how those functions are used published, we're shooting in the dark. But my guess, that we'll get verified over the next few days, is that the Accel table is activated by rate that the throttle is being changed, and that the decel table is activated by rate that the RPM is decreasing. Will know more soon. | ||
| Therenardo9r |
Al, On the XB9 ECM, I have been told by numerous people here, that this wire was used in order to pass the European emmission tests in order for the Bike to be European Compliant.. Also the way It has been said to me depending in which American state you are in, there could be different emission control compliances and that there would be some sort of way that the ECM would be used different way.....This may be far fetched but seemed to me at the time like a reasonable explaination. Another one I heard, is that this cable is linked to some process (maybe a speed sensor) that the Algorythm would take into account... You mention 'Without having the Buell algorithms' Being a computer person, it does not seem to me an impossible thing to 'visualize' the program (or the algorithm) unless there is some sort of encryption or security issue... If one can get to the maps ...and download stuff, and upload, the same can be done for the programs (unless it is on rom, in which case downloading only would be possible) using the VDO (Siemens) protocol. Unless the ECMs are pre-encoded in the Siemens Factory on demand for the Buell People I won't get technical here, but seems to me that an ecm is a fast automation device including a rom, flash ram, a processor, and a protocol bus. Has anyone ever opened one ? fab (Message edited by therenardo9r on February 03, 2006) (Message edited by therenardo9r on February 03, 2006) | ||
| Al_lighton |
Are you talking about the wire that isn't in the two big Deutsch blocks? On US bikes, it IS the servo activation wire. The schematics I've looked at don't say anything about US vs Domestic versions. There is a different ECM for non-domestic bikes, but the harness has a different part number only on the Japanese models. I suspect that folks think the servo is related to emissions, and in a way, it is, but i suspect it is more related to NOISE emissions than gas emissions. But I'd be willing to bet money that the white wire on your bike is not used merely because XB9s don't use a servo. I have no idea about the detailed algorithms, and I really don't need to know. We're merely tuning, we're not redesigning the behavior. You can look at the ECM as a black box, and with enough knob twiddling, you can begin to understand how it behaves. The details of why it behaves that way isn't as important to me as just having an understanding of how to change values to get the desired results. While it would be nice to know those algorithms, it isn't entirely necessary to get to where we're going. Al | ||
| Therenardo9r |
Actually not at all...the white wire I am talking about is one that comes from one of the two big deutsh blocks and if I am not mistaken my xb9r does not have that white wire in between the two block (I will double check today). I think that this white wire is connected to pin 8 of the ECM. | ||
| Al_lighton |
The white wire in pin 8 of the Deutsch connector is the speed sensor input. I doubt that is emissions related. The O3 XB9's didn't have the white wire that feeds the center tab between the two Deutsch connectors. It showed up on the XB9's in 04 because the XB12 and XB9 share the same harness. But the white wire that feeds the servo is a dead end on the 9, because there is no servo. The later XB9 ECMs have the center tab, it just doesn't do anything because the XB9 doesn't have servo algorithms. Al | ||
| Therenardo9r |
Got it all straight now..thank you... I removed the plastic around my spare ecm to open it up...I started to remove the moulded shell but it is hard as I have no idea of what is underneath the rubber.. I am taking it to work tomorow and will check with my radiologist what she thinks is best.. Either I will X ray it first, or put it through the scanner... so that I know where to cut and scrape or not.. | ||
| Therenardo9r |
I opened the thing wide open ...to make it simple...it is a state of the art dedicated computer..packed with latest technology chips completely miniaturized, even a risc CPU containing a 32 k eprom, a state of the art two voltage regulator, and a modular ecu Chip for making an ECU rapidly.. I won't go get technical here but this thing rocks ! Leonardo must have designed it ! I won't go into detail here | ||
| Therenardo9r |
but changing or copying the algorithm would not be a good idea not knowing all the hardware&Software changes...between ecm version... | ||
| Ccemn1 |
Jim's Harley Davidson in St. Petersberg, FL want's 1.5 hours labor charge to zero the TPS and will not do it at all, if you don't buy the Race ECM from them! This IS the free enterprise system, but unfair gouging like this really makes me sick! Thanks for the request! CC (Message edited by ccemn1 on February 16, 2006) | ||
| Josh_ |
Cohzair HD/Buell in Decatur Il rolled me in first thing, gave me a donut, had me done in 15min and didn't charge a thing. Nice guys too. | ||
| Therenardo9r |
I kinda have the same problem here, and this is why I bought the VDSTS software and direct link for future use...as the dealer here is the only one around and charges heaps, All of the XB owners I know now through my web site come to see me in Arcachon on saturday mornings to have their XB TPS reset. I offer them a café and I charge them a huge zero Euro note.. We then go for a ride !!! | ||
| Ccemn1 |
Please Excuse me, but I'm pretty ignorant! This "closed loop, open loop, algorithm" stuff is totally Greek to me! I just bought a leftover '04 XB12S and am putting the Buell race pipe, a K & N filter with open air box and Race ECM on it. I would really like to "fine tune" her, as I've had truly remarkable results tuning my other bikes on Dynos with PC III's. Is there anyone reputable, with this "Datalink & a Dyno, anywhere here in south Florida? Thanks guys! Also, a few of you have been PM'ing me, but I'm brand new to this site and don't have a clue as to how and read these PM's? Thanks again, CC |
