| Author | Message | ||
     Steveshakeshaft |
Pammy, I think the real (theoretical) advantage of enriching the inducted air is that every cubic foot of air would contain more than the naturally aspirated 20.8% Oxygen you get in regular air. Sort of like if you enriched the air to 30% Oxygen, it would be like running an 1800cc engine instead of a 1200cc one! Interesting concept and one that I never thought about before. Steve steve@ukbeg.com http://ukbeg.com | ||
| Ocbueller |
A blower is a good way to get the extra oxygen in. SteveH | ||
| Ralph |
Bigger pistons get more air in. bighairyralph | ||
| Blake |
Steve: Yeah, that's what I thought. But at what point would an air/O2 pressurized mix be a viable alternative to N-{2}? Would a 1:1 ratio work? Or do we need the nitrogen/oxygen bond at anything above atmospheric concentrations to safely oxygenate the fuel charge? | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
[quote] Steve: Yeah, that's what I thought. But at what point would an air/O2 pressurized mix be a viable alternative to N-{2}? Would a 1:1 ratio work? Or do we need the nitrogen/oxygen bond at anything above atmospheric concentrations to safely oxygenate the fuel charge? [unquote] Not quite sure what you meant there, but I'll have a go. The Oxygen enriched air would only be pressurised under compression in the cylinder, OK? Because by Oxygen enrichment of the air I would think you'd be injecting the O2 into the air just up stream of the carb. I'm not a Chemical Engineer, but it wouldn't be difficult to calculate the Oxygen equivalence from a given amount of NOS. At a guess, because the NOS is producing Nitrogen as well as Oxygen, I'd say that for the equivalent HP gain you'd need much less of the pure Oxygen in volume terms. That make sense? The Nitrogen in the air or from the NOS does zilch only take up valuable space in that combustion chamber. I'm not sure what you mean by a 1:1 ratio. If you enrich the air to 40%, then that is a 1:1 enrichment over regular air. But the beautiful thing is that you still only have 600cc of charge entering that cylinder, unlike larger pistons or a blower give you. However, the air in that charge will burn twice as much fuel, because regular air= 20.8% O2 and 79.2% N2 (forget Argon and stuff). Our 600cc's of enriched charge would be 40% O2 and 60% N2. Woo hoo!!!!!!!!!! One comment I would make is that in practical terms, when dealing with equipment in the field we treat anything working on around 40% Oxygen the same way as we do pure Oxygen. In other words, Oxygen is potentially very dangerous stuff and I wouldn't recommend you do this without a great deal of research! I also very much doubt you'll get insurance! Steve steve@ukbeg.com http://ukbeg.com | ||
| Blake |
No, I WAS talking about a "pressurized mixture" just like a nitrous system, with it's own fuel jet, downstream of the carb. I get the basic chemistry of more oxygen permits more fuel. Just not sure what the safety threshold is mixture wise. At what point would pressurized enriched air become a threat? I think Ken made a good point in that the N2O maintains the Oxygen in a bond until it is compressed and heated in the cylinder. That may be a VERY important and vital aspect that an enriched air/oxygen scenario would fail to offer. I just don't know. Chemistry was never a favorite subject of mine. BTW: the discus quote command is too simple... \quote{put your quoted text inside the curly braces here} and you get
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| Steveshakeshaft |
Ahhh, I see, yes I completely missed your point. I wouldn't like to speculate at what point an enriched O2/air/fuel charge would detonate in the cylinder. For sure, I'm not about to try an empirical trial either! At a guess, I'd say someone tried it, it didn't work out, so they stayed with the NOS system. Nice little bit of speculation though. If you really want more information on Oxygen systems and safety, http://www.eiga.org/ is a trade body that publishes this data in Europe, there will be similar in the 'States, I'm sure. | ||
| Blake |
Could it be that air cannot be easily compressed to a homogeneous liquid? Blake (starting to recall a little chemistry) | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Blake, air can certainly be "liquefied", this is a fundamental part of Cryogenic gas production methods. But it remains a "mixture" as opposed to a "solution". As you'll no doubt understand perfectly well, Oxygen enrichment causes normally non-flammable materials to burn. It also causes normally flammable substances to burn more vigorously. I'm thinking that a little O2 you'd get away with, too much and you'll detonate the charge under compression or on contact with a hot surface. Oxygen is dodgy stuff, I've seen the inside of large control valves and machines look as though they've been scoured by a very large Oxy/Acetylene cutter and pipelines burn right thru from the inside to the outside because a small piece of debris hit the inside of a bend in the pipe! | ||
| Fresh |
I agree with steveshakeshaft, Bringing in pure oxygen to enrich the fuel agent would lead to uncontrollable burn process determined by factors like pressure and temperature in the cylinder mainly. Very hard to controll timing of burn process. The mixture becomes to unstable. Unless maybe you can inject pure oxygen separate from fuel injection, then i think you can time it well. Sort of dual injection system one for fuel and one for pure oxygen. (anyone like to donate his X1 for modification and tests) Also i wonder how volatile a pure oxygen enriched fuel mixture in the carburator acts. I always learned as soon as the oxygen content in any fuel agent mixture rises 20-25 % above air ratio, get the hell out and ventilate. No matter if its dust from coal or grain, hydrocarbons etc. To high oxygen % in combination with a (any) fuel agent is bad news. Use of NOx as additional oxydizing agent is more controllable since oxygen is released at specific temp and press. range. Better controll possible by retarding ignition timing and when required reduction compression ratio. Oxygen released upon break of NOx bonds inside cylinder, so no hassle with mixing of fuel agent in carb. with associated dangers. Just my 2 cents. Fresh | ||
| Rocketman |
Water would work better Rocket in England | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Don't think so Rocket, the Latent heat of evaporation of water is too high, and that's soaking up energy just to shove it out of the exhaust. I enjoyed Blake's pure Oxygen diversion! But I'm not about to borrow some Oxygen to try it. Hmmm, Fresh's point about the NOS decomposing at *just* the right time, gets me thinking. How about using Hydrogen Peroxide instead? After all, the by product (Hydrogen) of decomposition is fuel too............. Neat eh? Steve steve@ukbeg.com http://ukbeg.com | ||
| Fresh |
Steve, H2O/alcohol works fine as anti-detonate with turbo's and blowers to increase manifold boost pressures. At a certain point its hard to control detonation by reducing compr. ratio and use of racing gasoline. Water/alcohol is the way to go next if you want further increasse in manifold boost pressure. The water spray acts as intercooler at the intake and this in combination with taking away heat from combustion process it reduces detonation. The alcohol, although not required, can be seen as an additional agent to increase volatility of the mixture. I believe a 50/50 mixture of water/alcohol is most commonly used in drag racing. Hydrogen Peroxide is a corrosive. Also in the right combination with other agents H2O2 can form powerfull explosives, sure someone will find out fuel and H2O2 under pressure and high temp will provide for a happy face. NOx is relatively inert, bond broken at conditions that are predictable inside cylinder and no chemical reactions in carb with fuel, and not corrosive. One cool side effect is the cooling down of the mixture due to expansion from fluid NOx to gaseous phase. I read somewhere that this can account for approx. 25-30% of the total power effect increase. Looks like NOx is made just for the purpose of increasing our engine output. I am sure other gasses can be found with even better properties but i am also pretty sure they would be far more expensive than the cheap NOx, readily available with many distributers accross the world. Regards, Fresh | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Hi Fresh, yeah I know, water injection's used in other ways too, like to control NOx emissions and stuff. Like I said, the whole sub-thread's quite entertaining, and my tongue in cheek remarks are not to be taken too seriously! Now then, if it's charge cooling effect you want, I can always loan you a few gallon of liquefied Oxygen! ;-) ROTFL ! Steve. | ||
| Blake |
I'm cornfused. Steve, did you mean liquified hydrogen? | ||
| Fresh |
Nahhh, i stick to my S1 as it is for the time being, got my hands full with it. LOL But maybe nxt winter i will check for NOx kit, just for the fun of it. Should not be costing more than 800-1000 US. for a basic system. I read somewhere that Japanese Buells have an intercooler on the intake to reduce detonation, has something to do with their fuel quality. Would non Japanese Buells benefit from this intercooler. How does it look like, is it like the airplane prop. thingy i saw on some pictures ? I believe it was on this board, report of a Japanese Buell meeting and i kept wondering what those airplane props were used for.(located in place of breadbox) I will try to find some photo's. Fresh | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Hi Blake, no I was just referring to the "advantage" of using liquefied Oxygen over compressed gaseous Oxygen. The liquid would offer more refrigeration of the inlet charge. You'd need a much smaller package of the liquid too over the gas (gets to sound sort of interesting). Having said that, I've never ceased to be surprised just how cold gas gets when it is let down in pressure from a bottle @ 3000 psi to ambient. Cripes Blake, you aren't serious about trying Oxygen injection are you? Steve steve@ukbeg.com http://ukbeg.com | ||
| Blake |
I think I'll stick to N2O . | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
So would I! | ||
| Blake |
Fresh, not an intercooler, just a fan is all. It mounts on the left side and blows right, between the cylinders onto the intake manifold. Japanese gas is a bit more volatile and thus sensitive to high temperatures. Fuell injection was having troubles on hot summer days. | ||
| Fresh |
Ahh, thx. Blake. Fresh | ||
| Rocketman |
So tell me, when you squash that drop of water in the combustion chamber, does it not give a 'free' bang ? Rocket in England | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Hi Rocket, nope. It just turns from water into steam and soaks up latent heat of evaporation on the way. But, I suppose maybe that's how it helps to avoid detonation when using all this fancy NOS and stuff? Steve steve@ukbeg.cm http://ukbeg.com | ||
| Chrism |
Rocket, a long time ago you wrote of calculations based on flow numbers that would indicate possible hp numbers. Do you happen to have flow numbers for a stock S 1 lightning head and a stock T-storm head? What is the formula that you are using to calculate the hp numbers? Thanks, Chris | ||
| Rocketman |
Oh shitt, did someone just open a can of worms ???? There was an 'argument' that took place regarding the flow bench measuring at 10 or 12 inches where my Dick O'brien heads were concerned. I don't know the numbers you're looking for but no doubt someone here will. Perhaps Pammy or Aaron might, or maybe give Brian (Nallin) a call. The formulas I used for calculation are from Denish's V Twin Tuners series of books, however don't believe everything you read  meaning calculations are 'open' to manipulation, and not necessarily intentional. Understanding math is one thing but putting the power down is another. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocketman |
So Steve, what happens to the steam when you compress it ? Doesn't the process in itself produce (useable) energy ? Rocket in England | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Rocket, No. The bulk of the energy soaked up is the latent heat of evaporation, turning the water into steam. This is only "recovered" when you condense the steam back into water and is not recovered in any conventional heat engine cycle that I know of. Steve steve@ukbeg.com http://ukbeg.com | ||
| Blake |
What Steve said. | ||
| Rocketman |
Thanks, and nice to know there's experts among us Now, about squashing steam.........LOL Rocket in England | ||
| Racinswifty |
A big question: What is the highest rwhp ever made on a street ridden buell??? Not dedicated dragbikes!! Prefer all motor no NOS!  |
