| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat  |
I'll do a little write up tomorrow (if I can stay off the bike long enough anyway). A few notes... My guess is somewhere around double the power gain when compared to all the mods I have done so far. I would guess about three to five from the rest of it, and about seven or more from the pipe. I haven't even touched the TFI yet, I'll do that tomorrow morning. I only rode it about 3/4 of a mile and it never fully warmed up. I suppose I could just still be giddy from the really cool sound it makes now  but it seams like the twelve reacts REALLY well to a good header. The install took about six and a half hours but probably two of that was bullshiting w/ friends, drinking a couple beers and smoking a few smokes. I would imagine that if I really wanted to I could do it in two to three. It was certainly easier than the service manual made it out to be. Oh, and it FREAKIN SOUNDS AWESOME! OK, It's 3:13 AM. I'm going to bed. | ||
| Slaughter  |
M1- WE DON'T CARE WHAT FREAKING TIME IT IS so what it's 3 in the morning.... Show us the pics!  | ||
| Tripper  |
Your butt dyno can determine a 7 HP gain after riding a cold motor 3/4 mile? Come ride my bike, I need to make over 110hp. You sound like just te guy to give me a plot that exceeds this.  | ||
| Tucsonxb9s  |
Tripper, I've ridden with M1. I was going to write something funny about his butt dyno, but I digress...  Let's see the pics! | ||
| Slaughter |
I don't wanna know nuttin bout no butt on no Buell rider - GET OUTTA BED and SHOW US THE PICS! OK - I suppose if you GOTTA ride, we can cut you a little slack but only for a couple hours then this crowd could get ugly. (we got some folks in our BRAG mob interested in race exhausts) (Message edited by slaughter on February 05, 2005) | ||
| Outrider  |
Pics are cool, but I would like to see a real dyno print out from a certified shop. Not something related to one's sphincter. | ||
| Ingemar |
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| Wyckedflesh  |
^5's Ingemar | ||
| M1combat |
I have no pics, but here goes... I started by removing the seat, airbox cover and airbox. I dis-connected the fuel pump and started it (it purged the line VERY quickly). I removed the ground. I looked around and figured out which wires really need to be unplugged under the airbox... Only the IAT, Head temp, O2, Fuel and the coil were disconnected. I left the rest connected becasue it seemed like there would be plenty of cable. I didn't remove the coil itself because I thought it would clear the side of the frame. When it came time to drop the engine I realized that was a mistake so I raised it back up just a tad and losened the coil. I didn't take it out, but a friend of mine kept an eye on all the cables while we were dropping the engine. I supported the engine and started removing tie-bars. The front tie bar - The manual says to remove the whole thing including the oil cooler. F that. I loosened the three allen bolts that hold the bracket to the frame and I loosened the tie bar that bolt to the engine on the front. Aside from that, the center and rear tie bar are very easy to get to. Once that was done and I had removed all of the necessary body work and loosened the wheel, removed the belt (I just worked it off the side of the rear pulley) I lowered the engine. I ran into two snags along the way. One was the coil, and the other was the clutch cable. I had forgotten to loosen it. Raised the engine back up a little and loosened it up. That didn't give me enough. I had to move the lower portion of the clutch cable so that it would come around the outside of the front of the primary cover. I didn't remove the ferrule from the lever. The engine droppped far enough that I was able to get a short socket w/ a wobbly and a 6" extension on both bolts. It was pretty straight. It took a bit of fidgiting to get the header to come off. The main problem was that the flanges didn't want to cooperate. I swapped the O2 sensor and put the flanges and the circlips on the new header (make sure you put the flanges on properly the first time. I did, but felt I should make note of it). The Force header went on ver smoothly. I made sure I tightened everything very evenly to relieve stress risers. The old exhaust gaskets were a little difficult to remove, and the new ones even more difficult to install (keep in mind at this point it's about 11:00 at night outside in the AZ mountains. My friends were freezing, but they weren't climbing all over a bike either... I was fine. When tightening down the flanges, I realized that it seems that the crush gaskets are designed to hold the same torque in the bolt for a good deal of travel. A good system it seems. Once the header was in place, I lifted the engine back up and connected everything. Torqued all the tie bars down and put the pipe on. The rear mounting place on the force pipe is too thing to get both straps back on with full contact but I put both on anyway. The forward rear strap has about a 1/4" overhang. The front seemed fine. I tightened them all down rear to front incrementally and then tightened the strap that clamps the header to the pipe. I put the lower airbox back on (which was an itch trying to get the damn breather hoses back through. I had done it about six times before, but I was cold and there was NO oil on them at all... I probably missed a few things in my process (I don't mean this to be an instruction manual ), but suffice to say, I turned the key and fired her up. Sounds AWESOME or better . A small blip of the throttle tells me this pipe will get VERY loud VERY quickly. Then the engine light came on... I went over everything in my head and realized I had forgotten to re-attach the head temp sensor. Son of a! I remove the lower airbox again and re-connect it, then run those damn breather hoses through again. This time I started it to check the engine light before I got the upper airbox and cover on... Again... Sounds feaking awesome . Put it all back together and put it back on the ground. I kept the bike upright with a ratchet strap run under the upper triple clamp. I only lifted a bit of pressure off the springs. I did NOT lift the front end with the upper triple. The kept the bike upright very well, and I could still turn the bars to get the tire out of the way so I could get to the two front fasteners for the chin spoiler and to remove the front isolator bolt. All in all, a LOT easier than the manual would lead you to believe. About 1/2 of the things the manual says to remove/unplug don't need it. The ones that do are the coil (although you can just loosen the coild and leave it in place, just keep an eye on it so nothing binds as you lower the engine) and a few connectors on the left side of the engine. The Fuel injectors and TPS were left connected and the wires never even got tite in the least. On the seven HP issue... It's a complete guess made at 2:30 in the morning in the cold with a cold bike. I'm sure it's not extremely accurate . I can tell you though, that the bike had a good deal more power even fairly cold than it did when fully warmed up before the pipe. I started it, sat there for one full minute and then rode it at low RPM's for about 1/2 mile. I got on it once through first and about half of second. The shift to second produced a floating front wheel for at least ten-fifteen feet. I shifted to second at about 4500 or so and was fairly ginger with the clutch. It has a good deal more power and I'm headed out right now to rough in the TFI. I'll get it dyno tuned ASAP. "Pics are cool, but I would like to see a real dyno print out from a certified shop. Not something related to one's sphincter." Same here . You'll get them, but I'm not sure when. And no, I'm not going to fix my spelling errors, I'm going to go play with my bike and •••• off my neighbors . | ||
| Johnk3 |
Thanks for the info. I need to do the same thing on my bike. I understand how you kept the front end stable, but what did you do for the rear? Do you have a stand? | ||
| M1combat |
Alright then... Tuning results number one... (rough tuning via SOTP dyno) This morning I warmed the bike up to operating temp and set the idle to 1800. I adjusted the first pot until the idle raised to about 2300 and sounded smooth. It's sitting at 6:00 right now. I rode about eight miles at about 3300 RPM's to allow the AFV to settle down and then started testing. I found that the bike runs very strong from 3K rpm's and up, but a roll on from anywhere between 2K and 2800 causes the bike to fall flat on it's face (it sputters very badly). If I roll on slowly, it doesn't sputter. I would say that anything more than about 60% throttle between 2K and 2800 causes the sputter. It felt like it was too rich there. The second pot was at seven. Because I would rather start testing by richening the mixture just in case it was too lean, I turned the second pot to nine and that seemed to not make much difference. It seems to cruise fine between 2K and 3K, but when I roll on it sputters very badly. I'm "pretty sure" it's too rich, but I don't want to lean it out and find that it was already lean and end up with a hole in a piston. Any thoughts? Again, it runs great from 3K up whether I'm cruising or when I roll it on. | ||
| Cataract2 |
Someone got a link to the force unit? I'm curious as to what it is and does. | ||
| M1combat |
The "force unit" is an exhaust header and muffler. The tuning I'm doing is with a Techlusion 1045-ST. BTW... It was indeed rich. I turned down the number one and tow potentiometers and the symptom was drastically reduced. I'll tune further later. | ||
| Lpd22 |
m1- thanks for your lengthy instruction on rotating the engine. I have my header removed but i think i am going to reinstall it the right way. you gave me a pretty clear picture, so i am going to attempt it. enjoy your force  | ||
| M1combat |
Make sure you pull the clutch cable to the side and drop it as far as you can. Keep in mind that the torque required on the muffler straps, header nuts and a few others are pretty low, so be careful. Tuning results #2 - It seems that up to 3K the force pipe doesn't need a lot more fuel than before. I assumed it did and cranked up the first two pots on the TFI... I've cranked them back down and it's mostly better. Still not perfect, but I have more to do. I'm pretty sure that the first pot is still a good deal too high. I'm sitting at about 4:45-5:00 on the first, and it still doesn't like 2K-3K RPMs and an open throttle. Above that... Still sweet . | ||
| M1combat |
I guess I'm just not really good at carb tuning... It still sputters pretty bad between 2K and 3K... It has actually moved up to about 3400... I'm thinking that it's beginning to foul the plugs but I don't want it to be too lean if I'm adjusting the wrong direction. What are the symptoms of running too lean? It pops quite a lot on deceleration, and sputters violently when I roll on the throttle between 2K and 3K. The sputters are very powerful. When it does kick in, it KICKS hard. I've been trying to keep it nice and gentle at those RPM's while I get it tuned but I'm having second thoughts about leaning it out. I don't want to be mistaking a lean condition for a rich condition and lean it out too far... I have the first pot at about 4:00 now, and the second at about 5:00. It doesn't backfire, it pops through the pipe (which is VERY loud and sweet sounding BTW ). It sputters when I'm going for some acceleration between 2K and 3K. When I'm above 3K it's a LOT more powerful. While it's sputtering the "power sputters" are very powerful. It seems to get a little better when it's warmed up. I still think it's rich, but I don't want to keep leaning it out and be going the wrong way. Any thoughts from people who understand carb tuning? It's still FI, but the TFI theoretically allows "carb tuning logic" as they say. The nearest Dyno is about 80 miles away and will see my bike this weekend for sure. Thanks in advance. | ||
| Hogs |
MIcombat , Hmm I hope you get it worked out I know on a Carb. if it spits back through the air filter its a sign of lean under normal acceration that is, But in the rpms that you are at And having plms. I`m not sure buddy...Can you cruise at them rpms. on the highway and then all of a sudden pull the clutch in HIT the kill switch Keep the clutch in and coast to side of the road and do a plug reading that might help...!see if its Fat or LEAN What do others think will this give a clue??? | ||
| Xring |
Without an air/fuel ratio gauge, plug reading is the way to go. But as Hogs says, you can't let it idle, you have to run it at the problem spot for a bit, clutch it and kill the engine, then coast to a stop and pull the plugs. PITA. Considering you just installed a well-known performance exhaust, one would guess you're running lean. You can get an A/F ratio gauge from Summit Racing for about $30, wire it up to your O2 sensor, and you'll know for sure. They are a handy troubleshooting tool sometimes. Good luck, Bill | ||
| Hogs |
Hey Bill, Bill do you know if they are good A/F gauge,from Summit, I think someone had one maybe from there and they said that the neddle just bounce all over the place for some reason I think they said it was good for carbs. only? | ||
| M1combat |
I'll get one today. Thank for the tip. Hogs... I have a Techlusion and I've cranked it up a bit. I'm not just running the ECM by itself. It doesn't spit back through the intake at all. It just pops on deceleration (which I "think" is a sign of being rich). It seems to cruise fine at the trouble RPM range. It's only sputtering when I get on the gas. | ||
| Hogs |
Yup I knew you had the Techlusion,so your plm. started when you installed the new pipe right?, before it was okay or did you install the pipe and techlusion at the same time?? and race or stock ECM ? | ||
| M1combat |
Stock ECM. I had the techlusion on w/ the stock header and exhaust and it worked great. I'm sure the Force pipe will use more fuel at all RPM ranges. Maybe it just doesn't use much more at that range and I still have the TFI up too high? I have the first pot at about 4:30 right now, and the second at about 5:00. It worked great on the stock setup at 3:15, 7:00, 4:00, 7:00. I think right now it's at 4:30, 5:00, 4:00, 7:00. I'm thinking I want to go back to about 3:45, 6:00-7:00, 4:00-5:00 (I haven't touched the third pot yet), and 7:00. I just don't want to be running too lean. | ||
| Stealthxb  |
M1... If this helps my bike pops on decel and I have had it dynoed to prove it is running extremely lean.  | ||
| M1combat |
Grrr.... Maybe I should just crank the acceleration pump pot up on the TFI to see what happens... I've had it up at nine though (that's where I cranked it up to before testing just to make sure). Maybe it's flows so much more that it gets to the limit of the TFI box? | ||
| M1combat |
Also Travis - What mods and WHERE is it lean? That Spec OPS pipe... Is that a pretty free flowing design like the Force? I know it's based off the stock pipe but just curious. | ||
| Stealthxb |
No snorkel, stock airbox, K&N, heat shield and Special OPS pipe. As for the details on the pipe I would imagine it is free flowing, but not a straight pipe like the Force. It still has the interactive valve intact so the amount of flow is based on throttle position. My A/F was a flatline across the entire rev range. | ||
| Hogs |
Sorry M1, I don`t know where to go with this as I have not installed the box on my 12r yet myself, don`t know first hand about all these settings you are talking about,Your new pipe of course is not dealing with the flapper valve like the stock one does at different rpms,at those rpms that you are having a plm., with?,, on the stock pipe where is the flapper open or closed if closed maybe to much gas if open to little gas, no flapper to deal with "•••• Brain freeze" do I have that backwards?? etc,..Still think you either have to get it dyno or do the cruise and clutch/Kill plug reading on the highway when its working good at the certain rpms, and then another test when you get on it and check the cruise, clutch/Kill again when it screws up and compare the plug readings ... you might have to do it a few times just to make good comparisons, As with carbs its the poor mans dyno in some cases is better than dynos cause it takes in weather conditions at least on the drag strip as well on the street ( i`m a firm believer in plug readings).. | ||
| M1combat |
I like plug readings too, but they're soo hard to get to on an XB... I've got a call in to Nallin Racing and Dobeck. Dobeck because they designed the FI controller and Nallin because they're soo smart . I'll get it sorted out, and I'll post my results here. Keep the ideas coming if you have any though . | ||
| Hogs |
Well I think alot has to do with the rpms you are having the plms. at of course and that is related to the flapper rpms in the stock can either being open or closed ,I think its closed but then again under WOT does it not open then?? Find out if you can what that flapper is doing at those rpms, and that might help ya to figure out whats up as I think you did say it worked good with the stock can etc. .. | ||
| Noface  |
I just installed one of these pipes on my 03 9R. Mine exibits the same symptom as M1's. When you whack the throttle open below ~3k it literally falls on its face, sputters, jumps, and acts like a kicking mule. Cruising at 4500 you get a nice pull, but it still feels lean. I don't have a TFI unit (yet), so this is understandable with just the race ECM. It is a lean condition, and the bike is starving for fuel when you whack the throttle open. What I would suggest, and keep in mind I have zero exp with the TFI unit, would be to adjust the accelerator pump dial up, and I'd turn up all the others, say 3 or four positions, and then tune down or up as necessary. It's my opinion that doing a plug chop is a waste of time. Particularly with todays fuels. Current petroleum does not leave the deposits on the plugs like the fuels of days ago, and if you jet a bike to have chocolate brown plugs, it's running WAY to fat. I need you to get this sorted out M1, so I know if I need to get a TFI box or a Powercommander. I know the Powercommander can handle it.  |
