| Author | Message | ||
     Odie  |
Aaaaahhhhhhhhh, the ol' Nashville club......I'm having flashbacks.......Odie | ||
| Surveyor  |
Rigga, I've got the same problem and as I understand it the TFI unit only adds fuel so it won't cure a richness problem. I also understand that it runs best in serial with the stock ECM. Let me know how you get on. My BHP figures are very similar to yours also. | ||
| Rigga  |
will do...i kinda think that unless the jardine and modified 12 airbox really leans the mixture off im gonna have to run the stock ecm with the tfi......if its still rich on the race ecm theres no point adding the tfi as you correctly point out it will only add fuel....going over old ground here guys i know,dont flame me.....anyhow fitted the jardine tonight,will fit the rest tomorrow evening and try to go for a ride to see what its like  | ||
| Racertroy  |
rigga....can you post a pic of the chin faring mounting brackets held up to the bike as if you were getting ready to install? I'd like to see what options i have for retaining the chin faring with a Force exhaust. If you have a spare minute, it would be appreciated. Thanks, --ts | ||
| Rigga |
racertroy........ i can poss take a pic the next time im down the garage,i have to take the chin fairing off anyway,as it appears i have the old style fairing brackets... contacted the guy who supplied the pipe to me and he was unaware there was a modified part..... anyway installed the techlusion last night,pretty straight forward apart from having to swop over the o2 connections,refitted the stock ecm and set the tfi to the reccomended settings and fired her up.... boy is the jardine loud!! seems fairly louder than the buell race pipe i had on previously,deeper tone on idle,and sounds evel when revved,seems to run rough but assume thats due to needing a ride so the ecm can re-learn its settings,will do this before sat,and shall refit the race em and do the same,so come the dyno set up,both will be ready to go.....heres the dyno chart from the previous run with just the buell race kit fitted,red line is a 5th gear pull,and the green peaks are a run through the gears....no torque graph as we couldnt get to the coil to attach a pick up,but hopefully will have more time to do so on sat  | ||
| Surveyor |
Rigga, looking forward to seeing your dyno chart after the techlusion is fitted. The dip in your power curve is not as bad as mine, were you running an open pipe? How can you be sure it's running rich without any air fuel ratio figures or are you assuming that's the problem due to the lack of topend power? I'm just asking cos I have air fuel ratio figures and I have reached the same conclusion but others seem to doubt that richness could be a problem everyone else seems to have lean running issues which can be resolved by the Techlusion unit BTW I'm running the stock ecm. and my bike is running lean low down the rev range - confusing or what!! If the techlusion works for you, then it should for me too, and I owe you a Guinness as I will have saved the cost of a race ecm!. | ||
| Rigga |
well the dyno operator i use is a good guy,used him before to set my supermoto up,he is an ex racer himself and knows his stuff,the run shown in red is a single gear pull which peaked at 80hp,the green peaks is a run through the gears which showed 84hp.....the dfference between the two according the my guy is because the bike appeares to be running rich,yes there is no af reading,as i was only after a base run before i added the bits i have collected over the last few weeks,his feeling is that its too rich with the race ecm,poss backed up by reports that it just dumps fuel everywhere rather than where its just needed,running through the gears cleans it up a bit,thus the higher peak figure......this was with the buell race silencer...a pint of the black stuff will go down nicely thank you  | ||
| Glitch  |
Here ya go Bob...  Sorry to get off topic... | ||
| Odie |
Sweeeeeeeet!!!!! | ||
| Blake |
I'm wondering what is going on with the green, through the gears run. "the green peaks are a run through the gears." Why is HP for lower gears so diminished? That makes no sense. The only explanation I can imagine is that the dyno operator was short shifting by a huge margin. Otherwise we should see darn near the same HP curve for each gear across the rev range, with the only difference being due to the differing parasitic losses in different gears, with more HP being lost in lower gears and less lost in higher gears, especially 5th gear. But those differences should be small, on the order of just a couple percent. Or am I missing something? (Message edited by blake on January 21, 2005) | ||
| Blake |
And if the red line is a 5th gear pull, they sure shut it down early as it stops short of 110 mph. Also is curious that if the red is a 5th gear pull that it is apparently tracking right on top of the green 4th gear segment. If I were you, I'd want a thorough explanation of that chart. A good dyno operator will document each run thoroughly so that anyone reading it will know exactly what is what. | ||
| M1combat  |
It certainly seems that the red is a fourth gear pull... Is the operator required to input gear ratios? I would only imagine that would be the case if you were trying for crank HP, but I really know VERY little about Dyno's... | ||
| Rigga |
well i might have been wrong,or not listening correctly,but now after looking again,and from what has been said it does appear to have been a 4th gear run......all i was after was a base run before the changes were made so didnt really pay much attention,should of i know,but the guy i use is very good,and has set my previous bikes up a treat,so i do trust his ability/judgment...tomorrow is the next set of runs to establish the best set up,will ask the questions regarding the first runs then....do have a slight problem now though,took the bike out today for the first time since the jardine/tfi/chopped 12 airbox mods were fitted,thought it best to get both ecm's recalibrated to the new settings before i turned up to run it....stock ecm first....felt ok,no hicups or stumbles,ran it at 3500 for roughly 10 mins,and all seemed well,opened the bike up and it really pulled hard,induction roar not too excessive,jardine was growling impressivly,so was impressed...next swopped over to the race ecm..initial impressions were good,better low down pick up,seemed to be smoother somehow,then tried to ride at a constant 3500rpm...no chance,kept stumbling and stuttering and seemed to be fouling the bike up,opened the throttle a bit more at this point,and it cracked back into life with a bang,,,top end hit is even harder than the stocker,so im wondering if the race ecm dumps so much fuel at around 3500 rpm its too much with the tfi (reccomended settings used) but the low end and top end are excellent,unless its running lean at the problem point i cant see any way of improving it but others have posted the use of the tfi with the race ecm with no problems........ ill run it tomorrow to see what shows up,but looks like it will be the stock ecm used,shame as other than the midrange lag....race ecm/tfi/chopped 12 airbox/jardine pipe is ace | ||
| Blake |
No gear ratios required. The power is determined from how quickly the drum accelerates. That is it. There is no way to calculate crank HP from rear wheel data unless you already know the parasitic losses and inertial properties of the entire drivetrain and tire. One might guess at those values, but it would be a guess only. | ||
| Blake |
Rigga, I bet you are right, it seems very likely that with the richer race ECM fuel mapping AND the TFI, you would get a WAY too rich mixture. | ||
| Blake |
I'll be interested to hear what the multi-gear run turns out to be. Really strange. | ||
| Reepicheep  |
You guys nailed it I think. I have A/F plots right in front of me, no difference except race ecm versus stock ECM, nothing else messed with. This is stock exhaust as well. The plot goe very rich between 2800 RPM through 3800 RPM, with a monster rich "peak" just above 3000 RPM. The hole is there on the stock ECM curve as well, but at it's worst is no worse then 13.2. With the Race ECM, it is 12.6. So if the TFI is attempting to mirror what the race ECM does, then the net result is probably your bike running at a 12.0 A/F ratio. I don't know when a bike chokes, but if it's around 12.0, that explains it. How narrow are the TFI adjustment bands, and where do they fall? Ideally, you want to back off the 2800 to 3800 RPM band I suppose. | ||
| Rigga |
reep.... thats how it felt,like the bike was choking right up,could feel the power dropping off at a constant throttle at 3500rpm,to the point where it was strangled,then open the throttle and it chimed back in with a hit..but only had to open it slightly,not whack it open..theres another posting on here about a similar set up and a midrange hesitation felt,the yellow adjuster was backed off from 7-6 and it improved it a bit but didnt really clear it up,so im now wondering if it can be leaned off enough to be acceptable,position 1 i would guess would be minimal fuel added so there is scope from position 7 to lean it off enough to eliminate the excessive fuelling...the low end and top end are that good it deserves a bit of time to try and eliminate it,so ill give it a try tomorrow......other than that its great,exhaust sounds great,intake roar is acceptable,bike really flies when above that narrow 3300-4000 rpm range | ||
| Rigga |
right guys some serious help needed here now.... took the bike to the dyno this morning,when previously tested last week it just had the buell race kit on it,otherwise stock,this week its got the jardine pipe,stock ecm,12 airbox cut so just the top remains and the tfi set to the recomended settings G=3 Y=7 R=4 RPM=7 when tested the bike was making less power than the previous week,tried setting the tfi with the mixture probe to get a good fuel ratio and ended up with the following settings G=4 Y=11 R=9.15 RPM=5 this only got us back to where we were the previous week with the buell race kit.....suprised and confused plus very disapointed were my feelings at this point,i was expecting some good improvements over the buell race set up with the new set up i have now.... plus when doing the run the bike hesitated badly until it pulled through to about 3500 rpm then cleared ...even though i noted when i rode the bike with the race ecm yesterday,it had a terrible mid range fuel problem,thought it was overfuelling with the tfi added,so went with the stock item for the runs..now decided to try the race ecm with the tfi all set to minimum settings.....this run was the best yet,clearly better than the buell set up previously,the gas probe indicated that the cruise portion of the fuel curve was very very week,showing only 0.5% co,we adjusted the green cruise pot until the analyzer was showing 3.0%,also set the red pot and the rpm pot,but left the yellow pump accelerator at zero. settings G=7 Y=1 R=5 RPM=7 this was the cleanest pull so far without any stutter,gave an increase over anything we had seen previously,but feel that i now need to do some fine adjustment on the road,it would seem,at least with my race ecm the exhust/air filter combo has leaned the cruise out so much it was probably running weak yesterday and not rich as i had previously thought..riding the bike home it did feel ok,but will have to alter the yellow pot a bit at a time to see what effect this has.... another question,i need to clarify the ecm's i have,neither states race ecm...the one i believed to be stock has the code O2AB in it...the race one has O2Y...i think from previous postings this is correct?,unless i have a suspect ecm/tfi unit im a bit disapointed with todays events,was expecting some good results from the mods i have made with the tfi added,but the reccomended settings were no where near as good as the buell race kit,lost power everywhere,the race ecm it seems has a more suitable advance curve and fuel map for my current set up,but still needed some tuning to get the best out of it...running the outer cover off improved things again,so some vents will be added,but the increase intake noise might be too obtrusive then...until i post the graphs up peak power was 86.9 bhp with a fairly linier line with no dips as such,peak torque 66.6 lbft three sixes? think the bike is telling me something?...again to those guys who have just bolted the tfi on and ran it at the reccomended settings i envy you,as getting it to run on my bike as well as has been posted on here was a frustrating experience which is not yet over....any ideas guys? (Message edited by rigga on January 22, 2005) | ||
| Cataract2 |
Give me an update on how that works out for you Rigga. I've found that my hesitation went away after cruising for some time. Possbile the computer had to reset itself. | ||
| Odie |
I would ride it for a little while and see if the ECM adjusts to it. Mine improved after a few rides. I'm running a stock ECM though.....Odie | ||
| Rigga |
i will ride it as it is now,because it runs really good,just so far out of the ball park as far as recomended settings go,seems the hesitation i felt yesterday prior to dyno time was a severe weakening of the mixture at cruise....the extra fuel of the race ecm and slight increase with the tfi has cured that..... the jardine pipe and opened up 12 air box has weakened the mixture way more than imagined it would....wouldnt the ride i did before be enough for the ecm to re learn itself then?  | ||
| Hanses25  |
Hey guys I just took the Jardin off my bike, and modified the stock can its really sweet. I loved the Jardin except for the installation, and riding with my helmet on without earplugs after about 200 miles my ears were ringing, but at stop lights I loved to make the soccer mom in the minivan cringe when the green hit. My stock can now is probably just about as loud, not quite as deep though. | ||
| Cyko_bob  |
Hanses25...how did you modify the stock can? I left a post on Pinging for you...regarding Korea Cyko Bob | ||
| Surveyor |
Rigga, I'm confused..wht's the conclusion? Race kit including race ECM +Techlusion = BAD ? Race kit with stock ECM + Techlusion = BAD TOO ? something has to be faulty - there seems to be a lot of confusion about you AF Ratios and whether or not your ECM has had time to dial in to the new set up. I did a dyno run and then removed the baffles from my Sebring muffler on my XB9R, the dyno tech. wasn't keen to run the bike for 15 minutes while we waited for the ECM to react as a result I'm not convinced my second run was accurate...maybe that's what happened with you? Also depending on the gas sensor probe being used it can be difficult to get the probe far enough into the muffler to get consistent/accurate read outs. | ||
| Rigga |
might well be the case that the ecm still hasnt had time to learn its new settings....if it gets real rich over the next few rides then ill know thats the case....but i hoped the ride i gave to both ecm's before this morning would have been enough,maybe not?...it just seems very lean with the stock ecm and tfi on its recomended settings,lost power every where,i cant see that anything is wrong with the set up,although no one has confirmed my ecm numbers to be certain i have the race ecm fitted,be helpfull if it actually said race or not for road use on it,but it dont,obviously a reprogrammed stock ecm i guess?...as it stands i do have more power and torque than the race kit,just not at the recomended settings,or ecm........ strange aint it.but dont forget the air flow through the motor would be very different to the race kit,with the very free flowing jardine and the cut away air filter...this obviously has had a great affect on the fuelling,but im sure others have run this set up with no problems.... more info on the bike can be found at www.freewebs.com/martin_brown | ||
| M1combat |
"G=7 Y=1 R=5 RPM=7 " That doesn't make any sense to me at all. The RPM pot is the RPM range that the main jet will kick in. Setting it at seven would seem to me to be too high. On my twelve I have it set at about 3:40-3:45 which should work out to about 3700RPM. I only have my red on two right now but the red pot is the one that kicks in when the RPM's get high enough. Did you initially follow the instruction that came with the TFI? Setting the idle to 1800 with the bike at operating temp, then adjusting the first pot and so on? | ||
| Rigga |
yes followed the instructions to the letter....but those settings are with the race ecm,not the stock one that those are recomended for,the bike would not run correctly with the stock ecm and standard settings,would hesitate/ stumble terribly pulling through the run,sounded horrible,are the dobeck settings for bikes with standard or the buell race systems? would deviating from those req other settings to be found,i agree it dont make much sence,the dyno guy was at a loss as to why it ended up like that,no other tfi instalation he has done has caused him so much problems,3 hours we were at it,run after run,swopping ecm's over and starting again. | ||
| Odie |
Rigga, I'm running at 6 3:30 8:30 and 6 o'clock positions.......Odie | ||
| Tucsonxb9s  |
Are the settings the same on a 9 as they are on a 12? |
