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Archive through June 04, 2020Froggy30 06-04-20  06:48 pm
         

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Starbellied_sneetch
Posted on Thursday, June 04, 2020 - 09:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Froggy.

Well, the bike's all back together and I'm sorry to say that, after all that work and money, it's running poorly just like it was when I parked it in the first place. Very disheartening. It does seem to improve the longer I let it run, though. I have the Buelltooth so I'll have to study and see what the numbers all mean and what I can do with it. It did have a stored error "rear o2 sensor" (which if I remember correctly is the only o2 sensor this bike has). I cleared the code and it did not return. Not really sure what to do at this point but I'll keep trying to figure stuff out. Any suggestions are appreciated.

EDIT: ECMDroid indicated an AFV of 79.6 - way too low. All signs seem to point to a bad o2 sensor. Symptoms are coughing, sputtering, very rough idle, sluggish throttle (almost stalls if you hit the throttle hard from idle), etc. I think later I'm going to try to disable closed loop per Buelltooth instructions, which seems like it pretty much eliminates the need for the o2 sensor. We'll see if that improves things. Again, any and all suggestions welcome and encouraged.

(Message edited by starbellied_sneetch on June 05, 2020)
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Akbuell
Posted on Friday, June 05, 2020 - 04:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Had a somewhat/not the same situation with my X-1. Were I in your situation, I would re-set the AFV to 100, and then ride it. Most likely all of your symptoms, consistent with a lean mixture, will go away.

After 150-200mi of use, check the AFV again. If it has not changed much, then you are done.

In my case, the rear injector was 'drooling', causing a rich mixture to the rear cylinder. The O2 sensor was reading this, and leaning the entire fuel mixture out to the mid 80's area. That did take me a while to figure out.

Hope this helps, Dave
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Starbellied_sneetch
Posted on Friday, June 05, 2020 - 10:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I spent a few more hours with the bike, Buelltooth and ECMdroid this evening. I disabled closed loop exactly per the instructions on the Buelltooth page, and tried various AFVs between 95-110. It ran much better but still not right. It's not quite as smooth as it should be, and when you crack the throttle from idle it bogs/stutters. Hit the throttle hard enough, and it might even cough or seem like it'll stall. The best setting seemed to be near 110. Since it still wasn't right, eventually I just restored the original ECM settings. It ran much worse after that, and the AFV went right back down to 79.6. I know it needs an o2 sensor since it had a stored error code, although the code has not returned, and it runs much worse when the o2 sensor is active. But it's still not right even with closed loop disabled, so it can't be JUST the o2 sensor.

This bike has been doing this since day 1. The dealership didn't fix it under warranty (just reflashed the ECM) and I'm really at a loss as to what to do. I guess I could try replacing the crank position sensor, but I feel like I'd just be blindly throwing money at it. No error codes. Very frustrating and I think I'm ready to get out of the Buell thing and get a bike that I can just ride.

Again, suggestions sure would be appreciated.
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Shoggin
Posted on Saturday, June 06, 2020 - 01:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You could take it to a shop?

Any professional mechanic in a decent V-twin shop should be able to figure it out. Seems less dramatic than throwing in the towel on an entire Brand of motorcycles because you can't fix it at home.
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Ducbsa
Posted on Saturday, June 06, 2020 - 04:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Grove HD in Winchester is Buell-friendly.
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Starbellied_sneetch
Posted on Saturday, June 06, 2020 - 08:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not trying to be dramatic. I took it to the somewhat local, supposed-to-be-good Harley/Buell shop way back when the bike was under warranty and they didn't fix it, so I'm a bit unwilling to take it there and pay them to do nothing. Also unwilling to trailer it 3 hours to Winchester, then have to do the same to pick it up if they fix it.

I bought a used 2003 XB9 maybe 15 years ago. Enjoyed riding it, but it had several problems (wires from the ECM rubbing against the frame, for example) that left me stranded. The final one was when the bearing for the front belt pulley let go, leaving me on the side of the road 160 miles from home. At that point I bought this 2008 brand-new, figuring I'd have a trouble-free, fun ride. And it's never run right. Being that Buell dealers/mechanics don't exist, combined with the many known problems and potential lack of parts in the future, I figure it might be best to buy something new that has more support and maybe won't be so problematic.

So, long post I guess, but long story short, I really meant it that if I can't fix it myself, I'll probably sell it as-is. And if I can fix it, I still might sell it. So, please, if anyone has suggestions as to how to proceed, or even if you know of a good Buell mechanic in Richmond, please let me know. Thanks!

EDIT: Doing a lot of forum reading and it seems that an off-idle stumble is a big problem for the '08 bikes. My next step right now is to replace the o2 sensor, and get the "race ECM for stock exhaust" tuning from Buelltooth and see what happens. Still looking for other suggestions though!

(Message edited by starbellied_sneetch on June 06, 2020)
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Akbuell
Posted on Saturday, June 06, 2020 - 12:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You are already aware of the problem - The Adaptive Fuel Value is hell-bent on going to 79.6.

Something in the fuel system is causing the ECM to read a rich condition, and subtracting a lot of fuel from the entire fuel map.

02 sensor? Possibly; and there was a historic code. Harness? Cracked ECM at the connectors?
Corrupted fuel map? Out of the box failure of the rear fuel injector?

Truely sorry I can't pinpoint a better solution. Dave
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Starbellied_sneetch
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2020 - 09:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for the suggestions. Injectors should be fine. I had them sent away for cleaning, and testing showed they worked well and were perfectly balanced. No cracked ECM, frayed wires, etc., that I could see.

I do have a question for everyone: I know how to perform all the component tests with ECMDroid, and I've performed them all, but it never displays "pass" or "fail" or anything like that. When I perform a test, how do I know if it actually passes the test?

My next plan of action is to replace the o2 sensor and install the "race map for stock exhaust" with ECMDroid. Perhaps that'll fix the fuel map and everything will be great. If that doesn't do it, then not sure where I'll go next. I'll post results here, but it will be at least a week before I am able to do it. Gotta go away for work next week. Again, thanks for any/all responses.
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Froggy
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2020 - 10:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The bike doesn't have sensors for most of the components on the bike, so it can't register a pass/fail. What it basically does is has the ECM try to send voltage to the component, you check and see if it works, and determine based on that. If you hit the fan button, it tries to turn the fan on. If it turns on, great, if not then you troubleshoot to determine if it is the fan itself or wiring related.

I will say the Race ECM for stock exhausts makes a huge difference in the way the bike runs, as the bike runs as intended vs the way they needed to have it run to comply with EPA and other regulations.

However, if your bike is thinking it is running rich and keeps leaning it out, I'm not sure the Race programming would make a difference, possibly it can make it worse as the bike will indeed be running richer with the Race program.

Hopefully a new O2 sensor will improve things but I agree something else is going on with this.
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Monday, June 08, 2020 - 09:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Don't despair, it can be fixed. The tests will ECMDroid will only identify component failure, not system failure as Froggy states above. (Think mid-late 80s GM cars). Change the O2 sensor with a Bosch equivalent - most auto parts chains have them in stock - to rule that out. I know it sounds crazy, but you *could* have a vacuum leak. Check for any with sparing use of carb cleaner and listen for idle change, especially around the intake flange/head connection. Finally, reveiw what you have changed and what parts are Buell/Harley OEM vs aftermarket. The fuel pump may be fine, but a regulator with increased pressure could cause a rich condition, even with injectors firing at the shortest dwell. Retrace your steps, take pictures, and share. We'll figure it out.
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Starbellied_sneetch
Posted on Monday, June 08, 2020 - 05:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks again for any suggestions. I have not changed to aftermarket parts on anything except for putting iridium spark plugs in (I mean, except wheel bearings, tires, oil, etc.). I hope it's not leaking around the intake flanges because I just put new seals in. I think if it was a vacuum leak I'd be getting a higher AFV, not a lower one, but I could be wrong.

I've seen a lot of complaining on the forum of 2008 models behaving like mine, apparently because the fuel map was changed to accommodate emissions stuff. I'm hoping that the new fuel map and o2 sensor will solve the issue. My first course of action will be to install the new fuel map and test it, perhaps disabling closed loop mode (since that requires virtually no effort or expense) and see what happens. If it runs good, then I'll reinstall the new fuel map to re-enable closed loop mode, and put a new o2 sensor in there.

Sorry if I'm rambling nonsensically. Woke up extremely early this morning and I'm barely coherent.
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Starbellied_sneetch
Posted on Saturday, June 13, 2020 - 08:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I burned the "Race Map for Stock Exhaust" to the ECM and it ran horribly. Barely would idle. In fact, it would stall sometimes. After getting thoroughly frustrated, I realized later that I had not reset the TPS. I presume that the TPS needs to be reset anytime you burn something into the ECM, so I'm hoping this will solve the issue. Hopefully will get the chance to try again tonight.
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Froggy
Posted on Saturday, June 13, 2020 - 02:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Is your bike an 07 or 08? Your profile says 07 but your posts say 08. There is a huge difference in the fuel injection systems, I'm just hoping you didn't flash something for the wrong bike to yours.

On the 08+, when you flash another bikes entire program onto it, it changes the idler stepper value. The bike will automatically relearn where it needs to be for your bike if you let it sit idling for a few minutes.

(Message edited by Froggy on June 13, 2020)
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Starbellied_sneetch
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2020 - 08:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well, that's strange! Thanks for the notification regarding my profile. Not sure how that happened, but the bike is an 08 and I've changed my profile to reflect that.

Anyway, SUCCESS!! (I think). I reflashed the ECM with the Race Map, then reset the TPS (twist throttle 3 times, etc) and it immediately fired up and went into a perfect idle. Was able to rev it without bogging or hiccups. I didn't have any riding equipment with me, but my friend (at whose house the bike sits) took it for a short ride and says it ran great! However, after he got back I noticed that it would sometimes stumble, and even backfired once, when revving hard from idle. In other words, it ran worse with time. My theory is that the 02 sensor is bad, as indicated in previous posts, and the bike is "learning" bad things as it runs longer. However, the AFV was still at 100 when I checked it at the end.

I figure the next course of action is simply to ride it at steady speed for 15-20 minutes. If it's not quite right then, I'll disable closed loop to see what it does until I'm able to replace the 02 sensor. Seems very ridable at this point, at least.

EDIT: Froggy, if you have a minute, could you please explain "Idler Stepper Value"? I'm not familiar with that term? How's it affect running, how do I check it, what should the value be, etc. I've actually learned a ton about this bike in the past month, but have a long way to go!

(Message edited by starbellied_sneetch on June 14, 2020)
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Starbellied_sneetch
Posted on Friday, June 19, 2020 - 04:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well, failure again. I only rode for about 10 minutes but it got progressively worse until it was a bit scary. When trying to hold steady throttle, it'll cut out/stumble, causing me to turn the throttle a bit more, then it'll "catch" and jolt forward. In addition to that, when I started the bike the check engine light came on almost immediately. I checked for errors on ECMDroid, and it said the exhaust valve was stuck open. I tried to manually open and close the actuator by hand, and pretty sure I broke it at that point (which was obvious when I took it apart). After taking it apart and plugging it back in, I could see the worm screw kind-of "reset" itself when I started the bike, so I know it's getting power, but when I rev the bike the worm screw does nothing, which seems to indicate that the ECM is not telling it to do anything. So for now I just went into ECMDroid and disabled it.

So here's a couple of questions: Is the exhaust now stuck open, or closed? I'm assuming it springs closed and that the actuator opens it, but maybe I have it backward, especially considering that error message. Whichever way it is stuck, can I ride it that way? I realize it's not optimal, but the next thing I want to do is reflash the map on the ECM, disable closed loop mode, reset the TPS, and see what happens.

The actual exhaust valve does move freely. I can pull the cable by hand and feel/hear the valve moving. Then it springs back into place when I let go.
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Tpehak
Posted on Friday, June 19, 2020 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Did you read service manual about how to adjust exhaust valve actuator? Try to august it first then you will know if the actuator is stuck open or close if stuck at all.

If you know the exhaust valve cable range of motion and can pull the cable manually all way out and it springs back to closed position then the valve is not stuck.

Also google and download electrical manual and follow the error code troubleshooting process.

(Message edited by TPEHAK on June 19, 2020)
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Starbellied_sneetch
Posted on Friday, June 19, 2020 - 05:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The valve isn't stuck. The controller thing is broken. I can pull the cable out and it springs back when I let it go. I think the default (when it springs back) is the closed position but I'm trying to verify.
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Tpehak
Posted on Friday, June 19, 2020 - 06:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes default position is closed.
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Starbellied_sneetch
Posted on Saturday, June 20, 2020 - 09:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm not as concerned about the exhaust as I am about the fact that I can't get the bike to run decently. After the short ride yesterday, I disconnected and thoroughly cleaned those ground wires that are grounded to both sides of the battery box. Next I'm going to reflash the ECM, disable closed loop, reset the TPS and see what happens. After that I'm pretty much lost.
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