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Skipbarberman
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 09:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've got (2) XB9Rs, a 2003 that I've gone through; update to 04+ final drive, ZTL2 with EBR finned rotor, hidden brembo 2-piston out back, Racetech revamped forks, Ohlins out back, American Sport Bike catch can, K&N, Dean Adams exhaust (yet to go on). ~14k mi. Love the hell out of it.

I also have a 2005 that I've gone through, stock, with 22k mi. that I will likely sell to support my question;

I've come across an 18k mi 1125R for $2800, but it's 2,500 mi away - opposite coast.

Should I build an 1169 for the XB9R, or get the 1125R and leave the XB9 alone?

I don't know a lot about the 1125R....heard about stator, valve issues, etc. Also, not sure how parts availability will be.

Any help from you guys is greatly appreciated.

(Message edited by skipbarberman on November 02, 2017)
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 09:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


My babies
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Doz
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 10:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

With a garage that big...you need more bikes. I prefer to keep the same platform by having many of the same bike. Lots of spare parts when things break.
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 02:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I would leave the XB9 alone.
1125 will put out 150% of the XB all day and not need anything other than charging system B.S.

Just my opinion.
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Kf5vud
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've got an '04 XB12R (with a spare parts '03 XB9R in my shed) and an '08 1125R.

The XB12R has the "potato" sound I love, gets 50+ MPG, has more power than I know what to do with, handles amazingly, and is fairly simple. I did a six-hour, 320-mile ride on it this past Saturday and wasn't the slightest bit sore afterwards, which frankly amazed me.

The 1125R is loud as hell (RT-3 exhaust and race ECM), doesn't sound like a Harley in the slightest -- in fact, it sounds like any other superbike. It gets comparatively poor fuel economy (around 30 MPG), has insane amounts of power, handles even better than my XB12R, and is comparatively complex. It also gets incredibly hot, especially in stop-and-go traffic, and boils its fuel in the tank for 30+ minutes every time I get home. Gas also leaks out the vent tube onto my garage floor.

The 1125R also pretty much hates to be below 4000 RPM. I had to get used to the idea of cruising around in first gear with the engine "screaming" -- or at least it would be on my XB. But driveability at low speeds suffers in any gear other than first, so I'm also making tons of noise. Good thing earplugs exist...

If I had to get rid of one, it would absolutely be the 1125R. I just love my XB12R and the 1125R is, basically, too much bike for me.

There's a lot to be said for learning to love what you've got and developing your riding technique. I found when I first got the 1125R that due to its much higher idle speed, it didn't feel as if I had as much engine braking power (that also could be in part due to the slipper clutch), so I started making a conscious effort to ride further away from the cars in front of me and "blipping" the throttle whenever I would downshift, and my experience improved considerably. I still find that, almost unconsciously, I tend to ride a lot more aggressively on the 1125R -- which I don't like.

(Message edited by kf5vud on November 02, 2017)
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2017 - 07:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I can hustle along pretty quick on those XB9Rs, especially the red one with the Ohlins out back. A kid in his 20's on a ZX-10 had an eye opening experience trying to catch me while I was dialing in the Ohlins around my local reservoir. He finally caught up to me when I stopped to make a damping change, and had to know what I was riding. He was a bit of a newbie, but still...
Working for a motorcycle road racing company earlier in my career, provided me lots of track time, and access to a lot of cool bikes OW01, TZ250s, NS125s, RC30, etc. I do understand 'to each his own' and such, but do want a little more out of it. Like around 20% more, or around 105HP or so.....I think that would be one hell of a lot of fun to ride. I've posted before about this 'amazing and elusive beast', the 1169 I've only read about on BadWeb.

That's what I'm trying to discern; guys like Steve Slaughter, Greg e, and such that have owned them have raved about them being the ideal XB platform. If they've ridden an 1125, how does it compare - what would THEY do? The allure of a simple, air-cooled limited maintenance platform that rips is just plain cool at this point in my riding career. Makes an interesting conversation piece with many who ride the japanese I-4 around here.

Finally, I've never really gotten (or found in my search) a straight answer on the 1050 conversation; only folks have threatened real dyno numbers before/after these types of builds, only for the thread to end. The start of great threads....pics, build-up anticipation.....only to have it end and seem to never resurface. (I apologize if I've missed something, but I've been reading through the archives on this site for 2+ years, as I apparently missed the heyday of the XB)

I've gotta find the time, now that our season has ended here in Upstate NY, to put Dean's exhaust on and start fiddling with the ECM, see where that takes me. I've done all the bolt-on mods I can; have to fiddle with the software and see where that gets me. Only thing left is the internals, and although I need to shed a few, that's not going to get me there. Appreciate the time/help guys.
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1_mike
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2017 - 12:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I could be wrong...but as I reacall, the Rotax engine doesn't fit in the XB frame.

Search the board, it's in buried in the Badweb somewhere.

Mike
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Nillaice
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2017 - 02:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

ive seen the test mule for the rotax engine in east troy, it was parked next to 'the' diablo.
it was shoe horned in an XB frame, or most of an XB frame was left. but ... yeah, the rotax engine does not fit in an XB frame
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2017 - 03:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

How similar is the 1125R vs XB frame? Head angles are identical, wheelbase is slightly larger. For the most part they are pretty close and handling is very similar - almost identical - from what I understand. Would be great if someone could confirm that...

Again, not looking to swap a Rotax motor into an XB, trying to decide if 1169 at roughly $5k once you balance, machine for larger bearings, get a 2008+ crank and lighten via Darkhorse, it seems to make more sense dollar-for-dollar, to buy an 1125R.

But they are completely different animals: one is a 2 valve, air-cooled 45 degree thumper motor, vs a 4-valve, water-cooled, high compression 72 degree engine. I'd love to hear more from folks - like above - who own or have ridden both. Would you do the 1169 for the character, or swap it for an 1125R? Ideally, I'd like sell the blue bike and buy a red 1125R and have both. Just not sure I can get there yet. Again, thanks for the replies.

Oh, and belt drive is on the other side - Rotax in an XB is a no-go.

(Message edited by skipbarberman on November 03, 2017)
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Greg_e
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2017 - 04:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I would certainly not go with an 1169, at least not until I wore out the stock cylinders.

As far as 1125 for sale, there was one last week in craigslist not too far from me which means not a huge distance from you either. I think there was an 1190 also.

How about this: https://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/mcy/d/2009-buel l-1125r-with-full/6363560977.html
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Greg_e
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2017 - 04:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

https://syracuse.craigslist.org/mcy/d/2008-buell-1 125r/6274877015.html

https://westernmass.craigslist.org/mcy/d/r-buell-j ust-over-2600-miles/6366556365.html

https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/mcy/d/2015-ebr -1190-sx/6365048339.html


Maybe some choices.
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2017 - 05:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Greg e - Talking to that guy now (the first one with the lower fairings). I mean, both XB9Rs run fine now - 2003 (red) just rolled ~14,500 mi and the 2005 (blue) 22,500. Both 'run like a top', as they say.

I've often thought about an 1190RX, but I'd rather have (2) bikes than (1) based on total cash investment.

Have you owned/ridden an 1125R? Given my situation - likely selling one of the XB9Rs, what would you do and why? Thanks man, glad you saw this and chimed in.
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Froggy
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2017 - 07:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I own XBs, 1125s, and a 1190.

The XBs and 1125s have a totally different feel. The 1125s are about the same in power in the lower end, but have a boatload more power on the higher end. Think of your 9R, but instead of running out of steam and hitting the rev limit limiter at 7500, you got 3000 more RPM to go and it really wants to go. Also having an extra gear is nice so you can upshift and accelerate instead of backing down at 130mph.

The 1125s really want to go too. My XBs seem to be most comfortable (noise, vibration, etc.) around 60-70mph, while my 1125R happily cruises 80-100mph, the CR with lower gearing and no fairing is like 60-80mph.

Handling on all my bikes are great, and can go way beyond my skillset. I will admit I *feel* faster on my XBs than my watercooled bikes. I canít really put it into words but I do feel more confident and feel I can push the XBs harder into turns, but my speedometers all read the same when I go through the same twisties.

Around town I will indeed say the XB is better behaved, the watercooled bikes want to move, the XB doesnít mind potatoing around like a Harley, other than the heat output from the engine.

The stator issue isnít a big deal. It only affects the 09 and 2010 bikes, so if you get an 08 you donít even need to think about it. There is a fix from EBR for the 09s and 10s, you just need to change the magneto rotor cup with one from EBR and your stator is good to go. If you are mechanically inclined enough to take apart an XB engine for the big bore kit, then the EBR rotor is childs play.

Maintenance on the 1125s isnít really a big deal. The intervals are longer (6200 miles vs 2500 or 5000 on the XB), and only the 12,400 interval ones actually involve real work like the valve adjustment. If you follow the book recommended maintenance schedule to the letter, the XB has more for you to check and adjust, and you have to do it more often.

Each bike has their own strength and weakness, but my 1125R is my current commuter bike as it handles the highway very well. The fairing does a pretty good job keeping me out of the elements, and I ride it year round. I live about an hour and a half south of you, Iíll have to figure out some way to get my 1125s up to you to try out.

The 1125 will always be more bang for the buck, even if you don't get that cheap one.
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2017 - 08:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Froggy! This is truly helpful. I get it, the bikes are different. I really would love to have both my XB9R - as I've bought the Ohlins, radial MC and ZTL2, Racetch front end......that bike is pretty sweet, AND an 1125R. Especially the full fairing one like this one here

https://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/mcy/d/2009-buel l-1125r-with-full/6363560977.html

I miss 6th gear, having always had one... and 146HP is nothing to sneeze at. Without forced induction or XBRR type internals, you'll never see that in an XB. And in all fairness, it's sheer volume of the air pump. 4 valves are better moving air than 2.

I just wonder if that potato,potato in an 1169 is more visceral a feeling and actually OUTWEIGHS the HP of the 1125R. I know that's a VERY subjective question, but would that be more of a grin machine than a stock 1125R.....because let's face it.....you can only use so much HP on the street before it gets you into some sort of trouble. I guess that's the crux of my question.

In your opinions, is the 1125R, with the refinement - Rotax/6-speed/146HP better, than a 1169 XB with all its charming foibles? ***Which would be a better grin machine and why?***

I ride a road around a reservoir....45 turns in 6 miles....its 2 miles from my house. I want to hustle around it, and want to power wheelie out of the corners in the short chutes to the next one. I don't want to go 120 MPH anymore.....my racing days are over.....but twisting one up or floating it to the next corner, all below 75 is where 'its at' for me. This XB is on rails after what I've done to it. A bit paradoxical as it reminds me of a TZ250, but sounds like a Harley..quite charming and visceral. THAT's what I'm looking for.

Really appreciate the offer.....and would like to take you (or Greg e) on this road if you come up this way again....this is why I love this site.
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Shoggin
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2017 - 11:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've got some experience here; )

When he says they are different, thats truly the simplistic but totally honest answer. I wouldn't give up the STT or the SX for anything and would happily add a 1125 again.

They all do everything so well, but in totally different ways. The XB has that sexy lope and rips anything from a trip to the store to 2000 miles of searching for curves. The smile never leaves your face. The SX is wildly, wildly, faster and can still do many, comfortable miles well above the speed limit.

And yet neither replace the attitude of the 1125. You'd think it was a middle of the road compromise, but it really isn't. Super fast, very fun, and will fast turn corners until your taint cries for mercy: )



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Greg_e
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2017 - 06:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have a feeling you are in the "more fun to ride a slow bike fast, than fast bike slow" area... Maybe tweaking an XB is a better idea. I still don't think I would go past bolt on though. Not sure it will get you what you want, but it might.

I think there is a little power to be had with cams, definitely some from head work. Then programming and muffler might do what you want. This is farther than I've gone with my XB, it's plenty for me right now so I don't think I'll change anything again until it breaks again.

I would suggest a lithium battery for you, knocks a lot of weight off but you'll want the correct trickle charger to go with it.

And with that said, a worked 1050cc kit will run you over $3000. The head work is not cheap. And I wouldn't do an 1169 without the larger crank bearings with the 08 crank. Also remember that the RR had a bigger throttle body, not sure you can buy this anymore. You'd want to atleast step up to an XB12 TB and injectors, maybe a 12 exhaust as well.

For mild head work, I'd smooth out the ugly spots, and then cut dimples in the entire path. Wish I had known to do this when I built my 1050 kit. For higher end heads, you'll need to send them out to a builder.
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2017 - 11:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You mean like golf ball dimples?
Wouldn't that sort of thing make hotspots?
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Phelan
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2017 - 11:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not in the intake ports it wouldn't. It's not for combustion chambers or exhaust ports though.
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 07:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

All great suggestions....

Greg, tell me a little more about your 1050 build, or point me to the link. I get what you are saying with the bolt-ons, it limits down-time and messing with a perfectly good, working motor. My only concern with that, is spending the $3k and wishing you had spent the $5k. That 1050 kit transfers nothing toward the 1169 goal. I also don't want to create any headaches with maintenance either..... While I seem to enjoy working/building them a lot more than I used to - perhaps almost as much as riding them at times now - I don't want to feel like I have to wrench to ride. I ride so little now, I'd rather not add to my to-do list.
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Greg_e
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 09:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not much to my build. Cylinders were all scored up from carbon and I decided I would do a bolt on kit. Raised compression a little bit as well as the slight size increase.

Got my kit here http://www.nrhsperformance.com/ looks like it might be on sale too. You could see if Phelan has time and send your intake/heads out to him for a little work. I'd also suggest new valves and springs while you have the heads off, new valve seals may be important. Track down a complete 12 throttle body and rubber pieces, then send the injectors out for cleaning/rebuild.

I did motor mounts too, though they are getting expensive.

Also, make sure you keep the old head gasket! You'll want that while you are checking piston clearances. Once you know what you are working with, you can put the new gasket on and do the final torque. If you want to carry things to their ultimate, there may be some head machining to be done to maximize the compression boost from the new pistons. Lots of measuring when you go down that path.
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Greg_e
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 09:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

And drain the oil from both sides before you start.
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Greg - Thank you.
I chuckled when I read your post about 'more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow'. You know, there is something to be said for that. I've often thought an 1190RX would just plain be a 'problem' for me with all that on tap - and from what I understand from all the great replies here - 'considerably more refined' than an XB/1125R. Old habits die hard, and I think your observation is very astute. I would have to agree with you, yeah, I am probably more in that zone than anything else. You don't have to go scary fast to be grinning ear-to-ear.

From what I have found, combing the inter-webs, is the following guidance below. I am merely providing this transcript and numbers that I found; I am in no way endorsing their validity....

Here is a little something to look at! Using a "REALISTIC" (!) 1.51 hp/ci factor. (Bhp,not Rwhp)
984cc = 60 C.I./90.6 hp
1050cc = 64 C.I./96.6 hp
1169cc = 71 C.I./107.2 hp
These are conservative numbers,based on C.I. only, (no other changes), but it gives you a realistic comparison.


Can anyone comment on their validity with ACTUAL experience? Slaughter seemed to indicate in a much earlier post (still digging in the archives) that his 1169 bike had, 'an honest 107HP'.

If one were to begin a build, attempting to achieve 100-110HP, would it make sense to do the Darkhorse conversion to the 2008 1.5" crank pins and Timken bearings, even if you weren't boring the cases? I imagine the crank lightening and/or balancing would be advantageous/worthwhile, or is a 2003 or 2005 XB9R with 15-25k mi. stout enough for a build like the 1050?

(Message edited by skipbarberman on November 05, 2017)
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 03:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mind you, before I do ANYTHING, I'm going to ride an 1125 just to see what its all about. I think that will likely give me a better perspective on what you all have described.
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Shoggin
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 06:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You can almost have an entire 1125R of your choice (with 146 stock hp) for the cost of the 1050 kit. I love XB's but dang...you gotta love them for what they are and are not...



Will 107hp for $3000 really be worth it?

(That's rhetorical: ))
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Greg_e
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 10:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It won't be $3000.00 for an 1169, there is so much that should be done with a change like that. It would be neat to have, but not very realistic. And I still suggest leaving well enough alone unless you need to rebuild to fix a problem.

A 12r with 9 size primary might be the this to have, but an 1125 will certainly have more go.
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 07:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Agreed Greg/Shoggin, I think that's the right answer. I'm sure It would be a pretty neat little ride, but doesn't seem practical with the current availability of 1125s; again, assuming parts are available.

Does anyone know what the frame geometry is for the 1125? I'm fairly certain they share the same head angle as the XB platform. How do they corner, when properly adjusted, compared to an XB? I know quite a few people opt for a Penske/Ohlins/Works rear on the XB; do they do the same on the 1125, or is that also more refined/next gen Showa gear? I know the front went to 47mm forks, but that's about it

Back to dig into the archives again.
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 11:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Incidentally, does anyone have any experience with NRHS 1050 kit with their Cat 3 camshafts and Stage 2 head porting? Kit for hard parts is currently $950, and the head porting also around $900. Just curious what this would do as it 'appears' to be thought out and matched.
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Greg_e
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The cylinders and pistons seemed to be fine for me, I didn't do the other parts because I didn't have the money at that time. It was within a couple hundred of putting stock parts on, and that made the choice to go with the upgrade.

Wish I could tell you more, but with the worn out and improperly tuned stock engine that I had when I bought it, the new 1050 pistons/cylinders and "proper" datalogged tune made a big difference in my bike. Not sure what the difference would be between a well running stock and well running 1050 would be.
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Phelan
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I love XBs, and build XBs, but...

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/21/ 814422.html?1509577242

There's a reason I have an EBR now too ; )
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Phelan
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 12:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

IMO the sweet spot for an XB9 is to not go to far. 1169 is great but adds a lot of cost as mentioned. I like the character of the XB9 over the XB12 and that's why I've had so many 9s (6 or 7 IIRC) compared to a couple 12s. IMO for an 03

-Stock bottom end
-bronze manganese drive gear
-07 oil pump (better scavenging)
-NRHS CAT3 cams
-1050 kit
-Ported and decked heads with oil drain backs also ported, aftermarket springs
-Ported XB12 manifold
-XB12 header and good muffler (no Jardines or Hawk) or good full system like a KEDA or Micron

With a good tune and slightly raised rev limiter should be good for about 100 RWHP but still maintains good bottom end and fun 9 characteristics.


03 XB9 also actually has a 35t front primary sprocket, unlike the 04-10 XB9 that have a 34t, so you have some room to play with the gearing there as well if you like.
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