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Skipbarberman
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2017 - 10:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

All,
Been on here for a while, read everything I can on here as well as some of the 'other' sites, curious what folks who have had an 1169 - like Slaughter and such - if the 'juice was worth the squeeze'. I know it certainly raises questions about reliability once you deviate from stock, etc. I have (2) XB9Rs now, both with airbox mods, catch cans, one with a race exhaust/ECM and one without. Dean Adams is making an exhaust for me now, and I've bought a 2010 XB12 header that when done will go to a local powdercoater for a ceramic coating (half of the price Jet-Hot quoted me). What I'd like to know, if anyone has the time, is this is a pretty solid street bike, and I'm fairly certain I would paste myself on an 1190RX, so if I were to 'up the ante' so to speak, is it the right way to go, and who would you have do it, and why? This question has been nagging at me, and while there is some information, its not current or conclusive IMHO. Thanks for any efforts, I am so into this Buell thing now..... LONG LIVE EBR!
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2017 - 12:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OR......

Should I just have someone port the heads? And leave the bottom-end alone with the exception of a brass oil pump gear.....
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Greg_e
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2017 - 03:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Do the cylinder/pistons need to be replaced? If so then at least a 1050 kit which is "drop in" would be worth doing. An XB12 throttle body and injectors would also be suggested with this or the 1169 kit. Head work is always valuable as well as ECM tuning.

Can't really comment on the 1169 kit since I don't have one, but the 1050 kit definitely made a difference to me over the worn parts.
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2017 - 05:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Greg_e - Thanks for responding. No, that's the thing... the 2003 has 14k mi and the 2005 has 25k. Neither runs poorly, or, has any indications of internal wear. Haven't jumped into the ECMSpy stuff yet - have the cable and was trying to get some time to play with that a bit. The throttle body element always scares me a bit. I would be concerned making any changes to the size of the intake tract without some internal mods...or at least that's my thought. Not sure if I've ever heard of anyone changing to XB12 headers and TB on a stock XB9R. I would think that would kill bottom end.
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Froggy
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2017 - 08:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Later model XB9s use the same throttlebody as the 12s, so other than a tweak to the fueling it is plug and play for you.

I've seen the XB12 headers on 9s before, I recall Xopti did it on a race bike, if I recall right it helped with top end a bit (great for track), I don't recall if it affected the lower end.
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Greg_e
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2017 - 10:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Don't fix what isn't broken.
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 08:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Greg_e.....I get it, but, I'd like to get to understand the 'next level', and was hoping folks here could help me do that. Quite honestly, this is the most valuable resource for these bikes on the web. I know by nature of the demographics, the folks that ride these typically don't get too far into the technical weeds so to speak. Again, while not a track bike, I would like to understand what is possible and plausible to increase the enjoyment I already get from this unique machine. Again, appreciate the time/involvement from all here.
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Phelan
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 09:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

According to the parts manual Froggy, 08-up still use a 45mm tb, p/n P0803.4AJ.

As for performance, I have a lot I can add to the table.. but I'm trying to go back to bed for a bit. So it'll be later after I've had caffeine.
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Froggy
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 10:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Phelan, I'm going to look into it more when I get home and can find my parts books, I distinctly recall that for when the XB9 switched to DDFI2 it gained the 49mm throttle body. I do see online like you mention the 08+ XB9s are running the 45mm again, I'll have to dig out my books and I'd swear this was one of the documented model changes. Damn it, I hate being wrong : )
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Greg_e
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well you will be in for about $1000 for the 1050cc kit after all the other work that you might as well do while the engine is out (both engine mounts, etc.). The 1169 will of course be more because you'll need to do headwork, you'll need to bore the cases, you'll probably find some transmission work that might as well be done while everything is out. Might as well do cams while you are there. Might as well have the crank rebuilt and balanced...

I bet you are upwards for $4000 by the time you light the fire again.
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1_mike
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 07:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Greg wrote -
"Don't fix what isn't broken".

Geeze I hate this statement.
If everyone went by this comment, we'd all be driving model T Fords and only have two motorcycle brands to chose from (Harley and Indian).

Mike
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Sagehawk
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 09:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I feel ya on that statement, 1_mike. everyone has their thoughts on these matters. personally, being a gear head, I absolutely love folks that are outside the box in thoughts. Phelan has posted the most on performance enhancements I believe. for those that want the most from their Buell. the other gentlemen that installed a 883 upper end on his 12x, regeared it and in the end , had exactly what he envisioned for his x. I so appreciated all the technical info that he shared with his build. Any person that can look at motor parts and dream up a motor for their exact use, is deserving of many accolades. the shovester is one, the fatso is another to mention two motor hybrids that folks have dreamt up. stopping my rant now, i'm just glad Erik did not live in a box!
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Greg_e
Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 12:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It's real easy to spend someone else's money, but is it really worth spending $4000, or $5000, or maybe even $6000? I forgot to mention that if you go this big, you really should upgrade to the 2008 crank and have the cases bored for the new bearings. Larger shaft and larger bearings to handle increased power or longer reliability. You'll also need a higher pressure fuel regulator, so might as well toss a new pump and filter in the tank while it is out. Do you get the idea that this will nickle and dime you to death?

I would go with the 1050cc kit again if I was contemplating doing the work. But if what I wanted was just lots more power, I would probably track down a good used 1125 or closeout 1190 and have lots more power.
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 08:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry guys, should've shared that.... In my research on here and elsewhere, I know a 1169 will cost me $5-6k when all said and done, and yes Greg, splitting the cases to bore, an upgraded large journal lightened 2008 crank, bronze gear, etc. That's a LOT of pocket change, and right now I can buy an 2014 1190RX near me in MA for $9k. Bang for the buck - horsepower wise, you can't beat that. But I am in love with the XB. Here's the thing; I used to work for a regional Motorcycle Roadrace company, and that had it's perks. Had my full race-prepped CBR600F2, rode Jamie James OWO1, Graves TZ250, and I have to tell you - my XB9R handles like that TZ....I just wish it had a little more power. I'll go the full on $5k for the 1169 as long as I'm not creating a headache - either in reliability or creating a all top-end motor (above 5k). I've heard from most that the 1050 isn't really worth it. My target goal, *I think* is 95-100HP, 80-85LB/FT at the rear wheel...I think that would be a blast a street bike, and one I could take to an open track session and get my grin back. With the Ohlins on the back and the Race Tech reworked front-end, and 95-100HP under me, this thing would be a turn-exiting, power-wheelie dream. I just have to keep reminding myself I'm an old man now, and heal MUCH slower.

Again, thank you guys for indulging me on this....I think with the price of these bikes now - I just bought a second XB9R for $2300 - this will become a lot more relevant discussion, despite the parts struggles.
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 09:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Man - Still poking around on here - see Greg-E was involved in a 1050 thread back in 2011, but no one ever seems to post results.....the threads die just as the motor s about to be built.......

Mr.Steve Slaughter was also involved in several discussions around the 1169....

Does anyone have a Stage 3 head port with a 1050 kit, a XB12 TB and 2010 header?
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Greg_e
Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 11:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Are you racing this or for street? I can tell you that my 1050cc was worth the extra money over stock rebuild, but I needed the rebuild. It's f'ing quick now... from a stop with both feet on the ground, I have a hard time getting my foot to the shifter before I need to shift into second, so that's less than 1 second to top of first. For a street machine, I don't/can't want more. Second pulls like crazy and then you are around the end of legal.

Track would be different, and if I was doing this again, there are a couple other things I would do like dimple the intake.

Since I didn't do a dyno, I won't estimate what I have, but it damn fun and easily within the realm of losing my license anytime I decide to let completely loose.

Reliability ALWAYS goes down when you throw a pile more power on them. The stock oil cooler can't handle the heat so you get a lot more heat soak in the oil. Bearings need to deal with bigger load, etc.

If you really want to build the biggest power that also revs higher, then 1169 kit and all the other parts that are needed is the way to go. It should be well over 100hp at the rear, think the XBRR was above 120, but still not going to catch a 'busa. I mention that last part because the guy I bought my 9R from said he needed something faster to keep up with his friends (on the streets), I think he needed better friends. Probably all street pizza by now.
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 12:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Street Pizza......that's pretty funny. You are likely correct on that note.

What I meant to say is in racing the throttle is like a light switch - ON/OFF, with the quickest and smoothest transitions you can make.

I'm not doing that anymore, nor do I really want to....I'd shatter like a china doll. Any track time will be to investigate some steeper lean angles and this suspension (Race-Tech/Ohlins) that while awesome, I can't really press on the street.

Again - Heard mixed reviews on the 1050 kits, and came away with folks indicating that it was worth it only if they had already spent the money. Perhaps the 1169 is a bit too much work and $$$ for the street, although Mr. Slaughter claimed he would do it again, minus a few of the more extreme things.

I'll do all the wrenching myself, adding to the enjoyment....hell, I bought a second one because I had so much fun doing the first one.

Honestly, it took me a while to learn how to ride this compared to a Japanese inline-4. TOTALLY different, and honestly a LOT more enjoyable. I live near a reservoir, and it's a great stretch of about 10 mi., and last year after I did the suspension and was on my dial-in ride, a kid was trying to hang with me on a newer ZX-10. When we finally got to a stop sign, I waited. He wanted to know 'What the hell are you riding there?'. Clearly, he should have thumped me... but we did have a nice, albeit brief, discussion about mass-centralization, physics and corner speed.

I honestly am looking for a little more drive out of the corners, and I think 95-100hp with ~80Ft/Lb will do the trick.
I can throw a compression gauge on the 2003 in the shop and see what I've got to start. I imagine a 1050 kit with Stage 2 or 3 heads, upgrade the oil pump gear, already have the 2010 XB12 header to mount with an exhaust I just ordered from Dean Adams, and perhaps pick up a XB12 throttle body.....might prove to be a worthy little weapon without splitting the cases. What are our collective thoughts on that? Anyone with experience, or better yet, dyno results?

Again - Thanks to all, especially Greg-e for sticking with this thread. Would love to hear if someone else has something to add.....

(Message edited by skipbarberman on April 22, 2017)
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Slaughter
Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 01:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'll have to respond when I have time.

My mods to 3 engines were based on RACING needs. Spin the engine heavily up at 4500 (minimum) up to 8000 (soft redline)

The 2003 motor with the 2008+ big end bearings is a must because the bottom end gets beat up with the smaller bearings.

Dahmer - Dark Horse Crankworks is the way to go for spigot bore and big end bearings.

I also had Dahmer take almost 2 pounds out of the flywheels for quicker throttle (and MORE bottom end abuse). With the pre-08, you can get timing off the cams. After 08, you get timing off the flywheels and I'm not sure about the flywheel machining on the later flywheels if you decide to lighten them. Don't waste your money on Carillo rods.

I had a TON of other mods - custom CP pistons that were matched to my combustion chambers. Surprisingly easy to do - sent my heads to CP and they made 2 sets of pistons to match with my specified compression ratio.

.643 cams required clearance for the taller lobes. This can be done with patience and a die grinder (or Dremel). Don't know if I'd recommend these cams and bigger valves for street.

LOTS of dyno time to get tuning dialled in. YOU NEED oxygen sensors in both exhausts for good tuning.

Used (and really loved) the Twin MOtorcycles Torque Hammer.

The engine wouldn't really be manageable on the street and with the compression I was running on my "A" bike, had to run VP110 leaded.
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Greg_e
Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 01:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Again, the 1050 kit I put on replaced out of round scored cylinders, so it was a good upgrade vs. the price of stock parts. How much it gives vs a stock rebuild is the unknown, but must give some based on higher compression pistons. I could probably gain a bunch with head and exhaust work... but how much more do I need since I probably will never put it on the track. I have my little 125cc for the track, and it's enough of a handful for my feeble racing skills right now.

If it were me, I'd pull the heads and see what it looks like inside. Let the pistons and cylinders determine if you rebuild. While the heads are off you can do a basic valve job, and clean up the ports. I would also now dimple the intake manifold and intake ports. It's massively time consuming, but seeing the difference in jetting on my 125cc made me realize that it isn't snake oil and there is power to be gained.

In short, go for the low hanging fruit first and see what you get, you might be happy enough. And if the cylinders need to be replaced, then either step up a little, or go all in.

And in all cases, you will need to tune it!

And one other little tid bit, my 1050cc was pretty close to tuned with stock map and XB12 throttlebody and injectors, so it made some difference with the increase in size and CR.

Not that I'm the most skilled builder, but you can see EVERYTHING I'm doing on my little race bike at my site. The intake dimples will require a free registration (Skunk Works section), no spam, no goofing around. It was a little faster than my brother's stock machine with that intake work and the same carbs. I expect the new changes to be even better (until they break the motor).

http://minigp-racing.com

Need to get off the internet and get swapping the cam and rockers, then bust open the rear shock to change the oil, and maybe put some fire to it tomorrow. And then try to fix the brakes on my touring machine so I can move on to getting it back on the road.

(Message edited by greg_e on April 22, 2017)
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Phelan
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2017 - 09:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Let me tell you about the 90" I built. At 6000 ft above sea level, it does 4th gear wheelies. 1st gear is almost unrideable, as any slight knee jerk reaction will pull the front end up fast. I should be getting it on the dyno later this week or next week, but expecting around 125-135 RWHP and 100-105 FT/LBS. Originally an 03 XB9R, it nows has a Darkorse balanced 08 XB12 Crank, Axtell 3 7/8" bore cylinders on bored cases, 15* reverse dome CP pistons, heads done by me with 4 new valve seats, bronze 7mm stem guides, .650 beehive springs, AV&V 1.980" intake and 1.610" exhaust, ported XB12 manifold, DK rocker lockers (bronze bushings in the rockerboxes to quiet top end clatter), modified NRHS CAT4 cams, NRHS -.080" pushrods, 07 oil pump, bronze drive gear, 08 XB12 primary sprocket assembly (required with 08 crank), Energy One clutch pack with Barnett +25% diaphragm, 57 psi fuel pressure regulator. When I rode it, we had a 12 header and race muffler, but now I'm putting a Micron on it.

It is a monster.
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Greg_e
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2017 - 09:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What made you decide to build it? Were you just bored with it or did it need work anyway?

I would ask how much you spent on it, but that seems like the type of project that you specifically don't track because you may panic when you see the total.
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Phelan
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2017 - 11:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I built it for a client. He wanted an XB that would turn his undies brown, and I'm fairly positive he will enjoy it : p. I would have to look at receipts, but I believe the motorwork portion of the build was about $7000 including labor. Doing the labor yourself saves a big chunk of that (about 1200 IIRC), but you also have to be very mindful of piston to piston, valve to valve, and valve to piston clearance, etc, as these are things that are checked and adjusted during assembly. We ended up doing a lot of other mpds and finishes, like powdercoated wheels, free spirits cut and powdercoated pulleys, FS pulley cover and belt tensioner, 04 belt conversion, 1125 forks and trees, fatbar conversion, ZTL2 and hidden caliper, Braking rotors, American Sport Bike carbon scoops, yada yada.
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Phelan
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2017 - 11:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

http://m.imgur.com/a/VCVyJ

Haven't updated it in a while, but here is the Imgur album of the build.
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Phelan
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2017 - 11:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

To comment on Steve's post about lightening the 08 XB cranks, you can do so significantly when running them in 03-07 motors with the cam sensor, since you don't need the teeth for timing. In 08-10 motors with thr crank sensor, there is much less material available to remove, since you need the teeth for timing. Eric Zeigler weighed the 03-07 XB12 crank against an 08 XB12 crank, and they are nearly the same weight. BUT the 08-10 front primary sprocket assembly is over 2 lbs lighter than the 03-07 XB setup. So you still lose 2 lbs with the late crank conversion because of this alone.

(Message edited by phelan on April 24, 2017)
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2017 - 10:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Phelan, thank you.

Couple of questions around the 08'+ crank;

The 08+ cranks were in conjunction with DDFI3, correct? While lightening them 2 lbs by use in a 03-07 motor, are you sacrificing engine control (going backwards) vs. finding a 2009 XB9R donor power plant and harness? Secondly, beefing up the main journals is almost always a good thing with increased HP, but would it be necessary for a 100hp motor? Balancing is always good, but beyond that do you guys think the extra journal size matters?

The economic struggle always starts with, ....well, if you're in there, you might as well balance it. Well, while you have it apart, you might as well swap the crank. While you've got it torn down, might as well bore the cases.....etc.,etc.
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2017 - 10:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Lost my first message....

Phelan, that bike is sick. I can't imagine riding that......better learn to grip that bike with your thighs because PRECISE throttle control is required with that HP in that compact a package. That guy will definitely soil himself on the first rough corner transition.

Nice bike, thanks for sharing.
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