| Author | Message | ||
     Kbbeckius |
The purpose of this thread is to try to gather all the available info on the DDFI ECM in an attempt to determine whether or not it may be reflashed or recalibrated, how it works, its configuration, and if necessary an appropriate programmable replacement. It looks like an effort has been made before on this board before to explore the possibilities http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/4062/10995.html First I'll kick out some info on EFI systems and what the DDFI is and isn't there are three basic types of EFI systems Mass air Speed/Density Alpha N Mass Air systems depend on a mass air flow sensor to determine how much air an engine uses and then calculates how much fuel is appropriate. Mass air is and has been the standard system uses by most major automobile manufacturers for more than 10 years now (its kind of funny since early Bosch systems from the late '70s used a crude flapper door air flow meter, everything that's old is new again). The main drawback is that all air coming into the engine must pass through the mass air sensor, which at some point becomes a restriction to further air flow. I do not believe any motorcycle manufacturer is using mass air at this point. Speed Density systems rely on sensors to calculate how much air enters the engine without directly measuring the amount. This is done through the use of a manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor, reading the intake manifold air pressure/vacumn. The system also relies on a IAT (intake air sensor) to determine the temperature of the incoming air charge. With these two readings, a lookup table of the engines volumetric efficiency vs RPM, the ECM can calculate how much fuel is needed for the amount of air the engine is currently ingesting. I would imagine some motorcycle makers use speed density. Alpha N systems are the most simplistic of the three, and also the most sensitive to change. The ECM has all only needs the "N" or RPM and the throttle position. All data is programmed into lookup tables which refer to a certain RPM/throttle position to tell the ECM how much air the engine is using and how much fuel is appropriate. Alpha N systems require lots of effort to program the tables, as the ECM doesn't refer to sensors to assist in calculations. There are some derivatives on Alpha N systems with external barometers or O2 sensors to help alter calibrations for altitude or condition changes. These are the systems which I guess most motorcycle manufactures use, the DDFI seems to be and Alpha N with an O2 correction. From what I read the Sagem ecm used on the now defunct Cannondale bikes looks to be a true Alpha N, Cannondale had to dyno tune their product on the assembly line, this extra cost probably added to their demise. The Triumph Sagem unit looks to be, like the DDFI, an Alpha N with O2 correction. Any of these systems can use an O2 sensor for feedback and corrections, and could use and method of injector cycling, batch, bank to bank, sequential, synchronous, asynchronous, quasi-asynchronous. I would guess that since the DDFI only has two injectors to control that it would be sequential, and depending on how correctly they sized the injectors I would say synchronous. I would also assume that there must be some method to reflash the ecm. Software updates are cheap, if Buell had to replace the ECM anytime they wanted to update the calibrations it would be too costly. I think I read somewhere that they updated the ECM via cartridges for the scantool?? The DDFI has a diagnostic interface, so it should be possible to write software, along with an interface cable to read the data and emulate what the factory scantool does. It would help if we had an scantool to use to reverse engineer a method. Who Makes the DDFI ECM, Siemens, VDO, Walbro?? To be continued... Your help needed!! Just found this, hmmm http://cds.h-dnet.com/docent/cds/BUELL700/ref_content.htm I got some readin' to do Thx Brad (Message edited by kbbeckius on September 28, 2004) | ||
| Kbbeckius |
Sweet!!! read the above link I'm not done yet but it is answering alot of my questions/assumptions, even though it was written for the X1. Some of it is just the basics though... Thx Brad  (Message edited by kbbeckius on September 28, 2004) | ||
| Kbbeckius |
Ok, I saved a local copy of the above here http://www.users.qwest.net/~kbbeckius/buell/DDFI_ref.htm and found and archived this too... http://www.users.qwest.net/~kbbeckius/buell/DDFI_Upgrade99.pdf IT CAN be REFLASHED!! At least the old DDFI ECM, anyway there is hope... Thx Brad | ||
| Kbbeckius |
From what I found the diagnostic scanner once used is mfg'd by Kent Moore tools under the part number HD-41325. Although it may be made by OTC now... http://www.otctools.com/ both companies are part of the SPX group Thx Brad (Message edited by kbbeckius on September 28, 2004) (Message edited by kbbeckius on September 28, 2004) | ||
| Whosyodaddy |
Kbbeckius, Do you happen to know if the DDFI system used on the XB line is the same system used since Buell introduced FI ('98 I think?)? Have there been any upgrades to the DDFI system? just curious... thanks! | ||
| Bud |
brad, the xb9 injectors are from sagem the manifold says walbro i suspect the throttle body to ? nice project greetz, bud ps. the 2005 models stock ecm is a blank one and have to be loaded with software by the dealer so an other newer version to add to the list | ||
| Kbbeckius |
At this point I believe the DDFI ecm is basically the same since introduction, with possible minor hardware changes, and software upgrades along the way. I read a PDF file Buell update that said in I think '99 that they added an engine saving function that would limit the engine when it was overheating. Try to find part numbers and the bikes they correspond to. What I don't understand is the whole "race" vs standard ECM, if my assumptions are correct the "race" ecm is from a hardware standpoint no different than the standard ECM, it just has a different calibration. I guess they do it that way to make some extra $$$ and to leave the customer with a way to return the bike to stock. I would guess if you had the right program you could make a standard ECM a "race" ECM by reflashing it. Bud-- that's interesting I guess that way they can make sure bikes are sold with the latest calibration. hmm.. Thx Brad (Message edited by kbbeckius on September 28, 2004) | ||
| Xbolt12 |
"What I don't understand is the whole "race" vs standard ECM, if my assumptions are correct the "race" ecm is from a hardware standpoint no different than the standard ECM, it just has a different calibration." Exactly what I was thinking. The problem is that even with the Scanalyzer you still have to have a program cartridge. Pretty well protected by HD  (with the EPA looking over their shoulder that is). xbolt12 | ||
| Static |
Anybody know if the HD scanner shares any similarity to any OTC products?( examp: GM's Tech2 or Genisys) | ||
| Kbbeckius |
Here are some ECM part numbers for the Buell "race" ECM 2005 XB9R/XB9SX 80027-05Y 2003-2004 XB9R/XB9S 32814-02YA 2004 XB12R/XB12S 32620-03Y the suffix on the part number appears to possibly be a model year and revision? (last 2 year digits)Y (revision) OPTO -- Yes they are heavily guarded, but by law they have to allow the scan tool to be sold, but probably not the ECM calibration cartridges. We'll see, I'd like to really make a go at getting a product like TuneBoy available for the DDFI system. I'm not sure how yet, but getting a scan tool would be a big step. Thx Brad | ||
| Daves |
Look in the "who wants one of these" thread on the XB board. Dave | ||
| Kbbeckius |
WHOA!! looks like TechnoResearch has got half the problem solved!!! Sweet!! now if we can just get them to get their tuning software available for the Buell!!!!! I'll be buying an XB12S after all  Thx Brad Be sure and E-mail them and let them know you want them to produce it!!! http://www.technoresearch.com/ | ||
| Opto |
Kb, check this out, a programmable ecm for the HD twin cam 88 for $440. Wonder how difficult it would be to interface the Buell with the HD Delphi system? http://www.daytona-twintec.com/TCFI.html | ||
| Kbbeckius |
I don't know we'd have to get a pinout of both ECMs and compare sensors, I'd worry about cam/crank signal compatibility. I'd even be interested in converting to the Delphi system, at least you can program it. You might have problems with the erratic engine pulse though, due to it being speed/density. | ||
| Kbbeckius |
Ok, what's this?? http://www.nhpower.de/sites/e_fuel_systeme.html The HESTEC box was an direct "Plug In" replacement for the standard box. Available for all TwinCam´s and Buell´s that comes with factory fuel injection. I may have found something....they're in Germany though. Damn, I should have paid more attention in that German class I took in college. Schnell..schnell motorrad  Thx Brad PS: actually it looks like HESTEC is Finnish. http://www.saunalahti.fi/~hestec2/english/hd.htm (Message edited by kbbeckius on October 02, 2004) | ||
| Bud |
the hestec plug-in is not availeble believe me i asked | ||
| Kbbeckius |
Did they say why?? | ||
| Bud |
email from there german selling point Hello, thanks for your interesting in NH and Hestec parts. I am very sorry, but they was so little response of our fuel injection replace boxes that they was no longer in production. We have racing boxes that can also used on street but need custom wiring. This boxes was the same that the TopGas chamipon Axel Seifert and many other TopGas racer use. If you need more info please contact me direct. Regards Udo Fink (NHPower Export | ||
| Kbbeckius |
Maybe if we knew they existed  Thx Brad | ||
| Kbbeckius |
Here's another scan tool if you want to spend $3000 http://www.cyborgcycles.com/electoo.html Thx Brad | ||
| Starter |
There seems to be lots of computer tools getting around claiming to be the equivalent to the Digital Technician and Scanalyzer but the shop down the road going broke because of introduction of FI Harleys will tell you different. Their servicing has pretty much dried up. We think not being able to reset the TPS at home is harsh, imagine loosing your business over something so simple. Reality is H-D is keeping their interlectual property close to the heart. I think it's been mentioned before that the scanalyzer is available for sale but the software is not. | ||
| Mikep |
KB, Have you considered MegaSquirt? http://www.megasquirt.info/ mikeyp | ||
| M1combat |
I have done a good deal of research on mega-squirt... It looks like it'll fit the bill aside from the sequential injection. The "ultra" mega-squirt should do nicely. You'll need a spark controller too though, so look into the Crane HE-4I. Also, MS's site is slightly confusing (or it was to me), make sure if you decide to read the manuals that you are reading the one that pertains to you and what your interests are. | ||
| Opto |
Daytona twin-tec also make what looks like a really neat programmable ignition. I was talking today to a bike mechanic who said the S & S intelli-spark system is excellent and uses a MAP and anti-knock sensor and programs itself, very interesting but proly expensive. One thing possibly overlooked is that HESTEC build a universal ecm for Harleys that were originally carburetted. I'm finding it difficult so far to get information on this system in English. | ||
| Trenchtractor |
Opto, goto Babel Fish translator and insert the HTTP address into the address bar and you'll have the site in english... | ||
| Ifgofson |
FOOD FOR THOUGHT........ This is what I'm talking about! Got 138 pages of instructions(English), Screamin Eagle, Harley, stuff. A section explains detailed "quarter mile" tuning specifics & tables. BAD part is, it reads, the SE upgrade will not work on Buell. c'mon now.. As far as the concept.....why not? This post,,Quality Stuff & it's seven years going. Thanks! My son and I really spent tons of discussion time on this issue, tackling or trying to solve a performance issue, he and I encountered while out, on route to nowhere particular, u know, riding. Tho the performance issue had no affect at cruise speeds & high rpm's, it was when caught up at the red lights and intersections, we had to nurse the bike to prevent the erratic idle. This went to the selling of his '99 Triumph 595 Daytona Speed Triple, Fuel Injected no 02 sensor. The '99 Triumph(Daytona) tho, scary fassst, otherwise." The shop tech explained the findings(1hr labor charge@$85per)re: performance problem complained about, $$$$. This post really really helps me understand why my son gave the bike up.  "The '99 Buell appeared to be quicker (0-110)." ..........FOOD FOR THOUGHT | ||
| Terrys1980 |
Way to wake up a dead thread. A lot has changed since that thread was started in 2004. |
