| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
Rocket: Doesn't sound "down beat" to me....I think you are spot on. The Buell target audience neither needs nor wants V-Max acceleration nor Hayabusa speed to peg their collective pleasure-ometes. The only place I'd take you to task is the geographic markets. Buell MUST do well in Europe to survive. Court | ||
| José_Quiñones |
If Rocket is spot on, then I ask BUELL one question: WHY RACE? What's easier, to make a race bike street worthy or a street bike race worthy? PRO THUNDER is fun, but it's like watching the old Shelby Cobras going up against the Ferraris back when. The rules keep getting rewriten to let the Buells increase displacement, or to restrict the other bikes, to make the Buells competitive, and they still break. Other than Mike Ciccotto this year, the other BUELL teams have more DNF's than podium finishes. So BUELL, if you want to race, build a RACE BIKE, D*mmit! You can/should do both. Otherwise, don't bother racing, like BMW, or go all out, like Aprilia/Ducati. | ||
| Davegess |
Why do Buells race? That's easy. Erik loves to race and he is now able to get other people to pay for he racing he can't really afford to do. does it matter that he isn't wining the Daytona 200? Yes I think to him it does but going racing is better than not going racing. Sort of like we all want to spend all night making love to the world's best lover BUT since we can't than getting laid is better than not getting laid. I believe that it takes major willpower and serious threats to keep him off of the race track. He has to settle for others racing his bikes. Dave | ||
| Peter |
Why don't they run a Buells only event? I wish they had a Buells only series in Holland. I'd love to race mine. PPiA | ||
| Travis |
Didnt the Cobra's win alot of races in their time? | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Peter, It's called the Buell Lighning Series, run by Formula USA _________________________________________________ Let's try an analogy, Dave: Imagine an ice cream eating contest. It's much easier to eat ice cream with a spoon than it is with a fork. Buell is trying to eat ice cream with a fork against everybody else that brought spoons. They will lose most of the time, no matter how many times you change the rules to help them. The point is that to race, you need a RACE BIKE, and current AMA rules make the manufacturers sell a certain number of STREET VERSIONS of these RACE BIKES. BTW, Why was HD allowed to sell 50 VR1000's in POLAND to be AMA legal, and Aprilia has to sell 500 RSV-R's in the US to be legal? Answer: HD is on the AMA board, Aprilia isn't. If Aprilia was allowed in the AMA, the VR1000 would look even sillier than it does now. But to HD's credit, they brought a spoon to an ice cream eating contest, where Buell is still trying to use the fork. ___________________________________________________ Travis, Yes they did, but to win they have to FINISH. Buell's problem right now, since last year, is that they can't FINISH the race. | ||
| Court |
Let me get this right before I call. You are saying that the AMA discriminates based, on membership, and that they have applied disparate requirements to Harley-Davidson (manufacturers about 200,000 bikes a year) and Aprilia (manufacturers about 1,000,000 bikes per year) I'm not really involved in this discussion, being kinda dyed into the Buell wool as it were but, as a journalist (the capacity I'll be when I call the AMA) I have to confess a bit of amazement that HD is in a position to exert such unconscionable pressure on Aprilia. For the record, I love the Aprilia products. Court Now you have me curious about all the crap Harley-Davidson took by not being a member of the MSF (I was asked to leave a private party for Lyle Lovett when they found out I was with Buell...Lyle saved me). It also makes me wonder why, with the BLAST®'s imminent release, as a trainer, why they hastened to "renew their ties". This is great stuff. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
YES, they have that much leverage at the AMA, and go ahead and make the call. I quote Dave Podolsky in the June 15, 2001 newstand edition of City Cycle Motorcycle News. The AMA deemed that Aprilia would have to build 500 units of the RSV-1000-SP that it races in World Superbike to compete, not the 150 that the world racing organization thought was reasonable. This rule exists so that any privateer can buy and race similar equipment to the factory teams. Well, this was based on Aprilia's size, and they are a big company, building 320,000 two-wheelers each year (many are SCOOTERS). But to put in in perspective, Harley-Davidson, who builds about 180,000 bikes per year, was only required to build 50---yes, five zero, and these all sold in Poland to pre-arranged buyers. Not only does that math not make sense, but the point of the rule was lost because you and I had no chance to buy one. It really does start to create a pattern suggesting that certain interests are getting in the way of a fair and equitable governing body doing its job for the good of the sport with justice for all. When you call, Court, also ask them why they allow a model not on sale since 1994 to continue racing. My main point was about BUELL trying to compete with a STREET BIKE (a fork) against Ducati 748's (a spoon) in an AMA PRO THUNDER race (ice cream eating contest). At least the VR1000 is a SPOON (RACE BIKE) even if it's a bit blunt. This is fun! Let me know what you find out, Court. | ||
| Blake |
I thought that the AMA's model homologation numbers are based on (as Court intimated, I think) total vehicle sales. Thus the disparity between the (50) VR1000's and the (500) Mille R's. The rule is intended to help the smaller builders get their bikes into the AMA series. Do we actually believe that Aprilia has trouble selling a measely 500 Milles? I sure wouldn't think so. The Poland/USA thing, if true, is bothersome. Though how in hell did HD peddle 50 VR1000's in Poland and why would that be an advantage over sellingin the USA?!! Wait, don't tell me... EPA right? | ||
| Airborne |
Harley Davidson history lesson. This might help explain why Harley sold 50 VR1000 in Poland amongst other reasons like EPA. Harley doesn't like to sell race bikes to the general american public. Business Politics, power and control. Back in the 1920's Harley made the 8 Valve Racer to compete against Indian and other brands. Back then a regular motorcycle cost around $100.00 to $200.00 Harley placed a $800.00 price tag on the 8 Valve Racer to keep the bike out of privateers hands. Again in order to meet rules a lot of those 8 Valve racers made their way to europe. If Harley bikes were to win races then it was going to be a factory team that won instead of a privateer. Some of the same H-D philosy is still being used today. Two reasonable sources quote the price tag of a new VR1000 at $50,000.00. Just recently a race team was trying to sell a VR1000 for 75,000.00 but that included extras. It's all about power and control. The more assets you keep within your control then you have the power to control other items of interest. | ||
| Airborne |
With the history lesson in mind does anyone really think that this new rumored H2O motor is going to end up in a racing format without a hefty price tag. All the indicators I'm reading about point in the direction of putting the motor into a cruiser to be sold by H-D. Some other rumors I've heard indicate that Buell used the Blast as a test bed for testing the cyclinder head and valve train design just the same way Honda experiments with there motors. Buell will then expand the single cyclinder Blast motor into another V-twin design to be put into a superbike. Who knows? It's all just rumors right now. Hey, what happened to the spell check button that used to be on here? | ||
| Court |
Jose' I stand down. You are right and I was wrong. Last night, I get home, competative boy spirit aroused and ready to pen some "level playing field" drivel. I pick the two newly arrived mags off the table and sure enough, there's more info about HD weilding their might to "race" (the word "race" is a bit of a stretch....remind me to tell you the story of the 24 minute rear tire change pit stop at Daytona. But....John Baker could change that) in the AMA Superbike class. However...some good has come from this. Dealers love selling VR's for $50,500. Showcases the tom-foolery of HD supply and demand Diablo worth $318,222 = Yes (although it broke after 40 minutes on the track last week) VR worth $50,00 = NO (t in my book, given the other things available at that price) Interesting racing tidbit.....to quote one of my favorite writers....ME.....from 1995 "when Harley-Davidson wants to win, they need do nothing more than give Erik Buell 10,000SF, a budget and go away. Whatever he produces will be on the podium the first year. Erik LOVES to race" In the end....I'm not sure that HD's scamming their way to the "50 is enough" deal has done anything but make them look foolish. There have been a few other neat by products. We know the bike is not worth $50K We know Pascal Picotte is a gifted rider We know a gifted rider (Russell) is not enough to overcome poor engineering And, oh yeah, I have this 7 page memo from 1995 and we KNOW the engineering on the VR has been brought to Wille G's attention. The memo (written by an engineer) make the Gemini's team look like the players in a Charlie Chan comedy. I'm going out on a line. I'm predicting that in the next 3 years that Erik Buell will play a pivotal role in the racing program and HD will, once again, rise to the top and be the one to knock off. Court | ||
| José_Quiñones |
So you are not going to call the AMA? I'd love to hear their response, but based on the whole Air Fence mess and the Edmonson case, I don't expect anything but a political BS statement coming from those yahoos. BTW I'm an AMA member, but AMA PRORACING sucks. They should sell the racing division to SFX, who knows how to put on a show. Could you share that VR1000 memo with the rest of us? I'm going out on a line. I'm predicting that in the next 3 years that Erik Buell will play a pivotal role in the racing program and HD will, once again, rise to the top and be the one to knock off. The announcement about this year being a rebuilding year for the VR1000 and getting Buell involved already points to BUELL taking over the program in the near future. So that line is not too far out to go out on. Pick a line that's a little farther out, like saying "The next Buell will never be recalled." It will be a sink/swim type deal, but like you, I'm betting they'll swim. IMO, the whole HD racing dept (dirt track, road race, drag race, Boneville) should be Buell's to run. Call them, please! | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Blake, They have to sell 500 RSV-1000-SP's, the high end version. World Superbike only needed 150 to be sold, while the AMA wants 500 sold. Who's being protected? That's right, HD's little VR1000. | ||
| Blake |
Airborne: One problem with that rumor about testing the new HD H20 engine's valvetrain on the Blast. The new HD engine has overhead cams. The Blast does not. José: Protected from what? Getting it's ass kicked by yet another brand's superbike?  Consider that upon initial announcement of the new for 2001 Duc 996RS "Within two hours of the machines going on sale once the speeches began, over 250 of them had been sold." That was via internet! And that "This is a homologation model, of which only 500 will be made." Again, the requirement for Aprilia to build 500 SP's is not unreasonable. Aprilia has no one to blame but themselves for not making the 2001 AMA roadrace season. Do they have to "sell" 500 SP's, or simply "produce" 500 SP's? As far as the "factory teams" scenario goes. I bet Duc is regretting taking the AMA effort away from the previous factory suported Vance and Hines team. I agree, moto racing in America would be served very well if run by an organization like NASCAR. The AMA has evolved from a motorcycle club to a motorcycle institution and political force; they do well in that role. Let someone with more focused passion and the desire to promote make moto road racing a first class american spectator sport. Airfence mess? I saw the AMA's implementation of the airfence as positive. Maybe we shouldn't be too quick to throw stones. There is a LOT more to the airfence implementation that simply buying the material (transportation, setup, teardown, maintenance...). Personally, I hold the track owners and factory race teams much more responsible than the AMA. Look at the WSB tracks in Europe and the rest of the world. They don't need airfence! anyway... I'm happy to say that I've heard very good things about the track prowess of the new Buell. I don't believe that it'll be a superbike, but it will be a well sorted sportbike. I'll probably want one. I'll be keeping one M2 though, no matter what. I love that bike! See you out there, Blake |
