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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 07:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)



This plug is from the front, with the rear looking just as bad. Put in fresh plugs, took the bike for a AFV reset before getting on it at all. After the reset not only is it pinging like a well never mind, its bad, the idle keeps climbing up and down from just under 900 to 1200 now. I am going to have to bite the bullet and have the dealer pick it up and hope they can get it back to me in a reasonable amount of time...The plugs are two weeks old btw. Less then 1000 miles on them.
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Fullpower
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

any trouble codes set?
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Dasbuell
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

On the subject of reading plugs... is there any truth to what I have heard that trying to read plugs on a fuel injected bike can fool you... because of the system constantly making changes?

Anyone... anyone...

Bueller...

(formerly dasxb9s - still trying to learn)
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 04:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

No trouble codes at all. I have been told that on a FI engine its easier to read the plugs because you rev it then cut it without getting any overrun like you can on a carbed engine. The validity of this is unknown as far as that goes.

Its at the dealer and the symptoms that were more noticeable today makes me beleive I have an intake leak. On the trip to the dealer I was on the throttle gingerly. Rolling it up to speed just taking it easy. Cruising at 3500-4000 the bike would drop in power then come back on up and down on its own with occasional sessions of "ping" unexpectedly. That was at a steady cruise. You gas it and it pinged hard.
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Xbolt12
Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Yikes!

Can't quite make out in the picture if there are any aluminum deposits on the electrode or the insulator.

Interestingly, the soot on the shell looks ok to even a little rich to me (if I recall correctly from my old experiences). The bone white insulator looks extremely lean although it's kind of hard to tell without a side view of the insulator.

Just wondering if you are sure you have the right heat range plug? Seems like you would have balled up deposits on the shell if that were the case though.

Please let us know what the solution is.

Thanks,


xbolt12
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 06:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

There are no deposits of metal anywhere on the plug which is what I was honestly expecting. I will edit some of the other pics I took to let you see some of the side views.
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Starter
Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 08:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

That is a very crazy looking plug (and I'm not talking about the Vee). The light tan color on the earth looks OK, but there is some serious heat burn closer to the base. Usually there would be some of that tan colour elsewhere on the seat if things were fine, but your plug once again shows serious heat burn which would suggest to me your just on the lean side. This plug tells me the combustion chamber has a few problems with inlet mixture distribution. My suggestion, get some normal plugs or even platinum/iridium if you got the $ spare and try those. The earth electrode on those is a little smaller and won't influence the flow of the combustion charge as much.
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Unibear12r
Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 08:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I gotta agree with Xbolt.....
And Starter.....
Btw I've always heard that the splitfires are junk. Has conventional wisdom changed ?

<font size="-2">(Message edited by unibear12r on September 12, 2004)</font>
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 08:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

That is the Buell Pro Series plug for those that weren't in the know...side view of both...
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Unibear12r
Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 08:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Yes I know....
Its also Harley Screaming Eagle. Used them in my Sportster once about five years ago but didn't like them and went the way Starter suggests. I heard Splitfires were junk long before Harley picked them up.
But I'm no expert on plugs, just working on hearsay.
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Starter
Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 01:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Looking at those two plugs as a series (ie front and back cylinders) they look to be showing exactly what I would have thought to be the relationship between the cylinders. Clearly the rear cylinder is operating at elevated temparatures (um derr......read on I'll make my point) to the front. I have heard people talking about the rear cylinder being mapped a little richer to compensate but I don't think that is the case with your bike, nor mine looking at my plugs. There is little to no blistering on the surface of the electrode, centre electrode or ceramic so things don't look too lean and if you look in the recess near the ceramic insulator is you'll see that the mixture is fine (a little rich is fact due to the dark soot deposit). My rear plug looked very similar to your front the first time I checked them (everything was stock standard) but the front was completely tan and the rear one ever so slight white dusting. The reason they are nice and white is that the bike is suffering from way too much ignition advance. Get the mechanic to check the timing and retard it a couple of degrees and test the results. For some reason the ignition curve is set at the factory way too advanced and the problems you have occur.

There is the possibility you are in need of a higher heat rating plug but this is something that only a very experienced mechanic should prescribe as it is a not the sort of fix you try after reading it on the internet nor from a professional oil changer. But get rid of those twin electrode widgets and get factory recommended normal plugs (iridiums would be better). Beleive it or not you still only get one spark per ignition cycle and I beleive those things actually sheild the spark from the mixture and cause all sorts of combustion abnormalities.
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 02:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

When I changed out the plugs two weeks ago it was the second plug change I had done on the bike and had no problems with the Pro series. It was my choice to change them out due to a severe change in fuel from what I had been running to what I put in the bike. The new rating fuel was 91-92 octane with up to 15% MTBE and there seemed to be a noticeble ping once the bike warmed up. The plugs I replaced were evenly tanned front and rear and quite possibly could have simply been cleaned and returned to service. Infact they are sitting in my tool box, cleaned, and ready as a spares if need be. I chose to simply install new ones for piece of mind. One week after the change is when the severe pinging and odd running at idle appeared. The combination leads me to believe I am having a lean condition but am more inclined to believe its an intake leak at the heads. Or even possibly a leak around the injector seals, with the rear showing more of a leak.

I do have a set of iridium NGK on order to try them out once I get the bike back from the dealer who is looking into the running problem.

As to the recommendation of the hotter plug, it was my understanding to run a colder plug rather then hotter so to cut down on preignition that a hotter plug can cause. My understanding is that a colder range plug cools more between firing then a hotter range so cuts down on the preigniton/detonation.

It will be interesting to hear what the dealer has to say. They took it in as a warrenty issue with the possibility of just a TPS reset but are looking into it. They also mentioned that due to being extremely busy (verified by the number of bikes with service tags as well as the number of bikes checking in with me) it quite possibly may not be until Tuesday or Wednesday before a tech even gets to look at it. Guess the other dealers around are slacking and loosing customers because the 3 people ahead of me were also from my area of town in which we have a HD dealer not 5 mins away but instead went to the other side of town to be serviced. They were all riding Big Twins and had similiar symptoms as I did.
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 07:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Official diagnosis: Intake seal leak at the rear cylinder. As well as a TPS that was WAY off but its the tech's belief the leaking seal caused the TPS problem. I pick it up later tonight. All covered under warranty.
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Sammigs
Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 10:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

WARNING
I think too many techs blame too many conditions on the T.P.S. needing to be reset.

How does a intake leak change the zero value of the T.P.S.? Was the idle turned up through the roof?

Sorry to be a "A" hole but I think the T.P.S. is an easy dart to throw for a lot of the Harley/Buell techs.

I do think it's excellent that it's all covered, and hope they get it back to you good as new.
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 10:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

His explaination was that the AFV being thrown off so badly by the intake leak caused the ECM to beleive the throttle was open more then it was.
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Starter
Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 11:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I'm still thinking ignition advance is the cause of the white dusting and pinging. BTW at which rpm did you run it and shut it off? Anywhere near the EPA testing rpm and the plug reading exercise is useless.

BTW Split-Fires = Autolites w/ Vee earth.

http://www.adminresources.com/psa/PSA00048.PDF

Some interesting reading.

My veiw on the TPS is that once it is set which involves telling the ECM "OK the throttle is now in zero position, this is the voltage you will be associate with zero throttle". This doesn't change through any means other than gross mechanical failure of the TB or sensor, wear and tear, or electrical failure. My evidence of this is the exact logic that makes the ECMs interchangable whenever I want since they have both been calibrated to my particular TPS. Proof, I installed race ECM wouldn't run, had TPS zeroed at dealer, ran great, wanted to quantify improvements from race ECM so reinstalled stock ECM, still ran great but with different power characteristics, OK liked Race ECM better, reinstalled Race ECM still ran great.
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Unibear12r
Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 04:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I'm glad they think they found the problem.
Hopefully its solved and you have no more hassles.
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 04:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

She is back to runnin' like a bat out of hell with NO sound of ping ANYWHERE in the rev range. I was very happy with the quick turn around as well. Seems the shop has added a dedicated Buell Tech that works on nothing but Buells.
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Xbolt12
Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 12:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hmmm....very interrresting!

Just wondering, what seal was it-are you talking about the intake manifold to cylinder gasket (if that is what it uses)?

Guess I'd better pull my plugs and check them. I am running w/o the snorkle, race filter, stock ECM and exhaust on an XB12R. The bike pinged on really hot days, especially after being stuck in traffic or at stoplights when stock. It would also ping on a hard riding trip that ended up in the desert at around sea-level after riding at around 4000-5000 foot level. I figured that was due to the ECM never getting a chance to re-learn because I was hard on the gas going down into the desert.

The Race Filter (K&N) did not seem to cause any noticeable difference in pinging but did make the bike rev easier and had a harder hit above 4k rpm.

A couple of weeks ago I decided to pull the intake snorkle and that's when major pinging started on roll-on and even cruising below 4,000 rpm if you crack the throttle. Once you get the throttle open the bike seems fine (although I hope that it's not simply engine noise masking the pinging).

What's really suprising is that just the snorkle removal can make such a big change.

BTW-I did have the airbox base off at the same time because I had to replace the throttle cables I damaged while fitting my steering damper. I don't see how that would cause an air leak though. I also can't see why throttle cable replacement would require a TPS reset.

Comments anyone?


xbolt12
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 01:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

It was infact the manifold to cylinderhead gasket. They also replaced both of the rings that hold the manifold against the heads. One thing about the snorkle, it is a sound damper more then anything else. Taking it out lets you hear more of the sounds coming up through the intake.

As to changing out the throttle cables and the TPS I couldn't say. I know that with mine it was stated that the ECM wasn't reading the TPS properly anymore, which makes me beleive the ECM was trying to compensate with the intake leak.
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Bradyclt
Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 01:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

XBolt12... It's my understanding (and I might be totally wrong on this, so pardon me if so) that the DDFI systems on the XBs aren't nearly as sophisticated auto FI systems in that the XBs don't have a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) or MAF (mass airflow) sensor. Rather than metering airflow and pressure for a more exact fuel shot, the DDFI system relies primarily on O2 sensing, IAT (intake air temp), TPS, and engine RPM (as a roundabout way of determining mass airflow, since the engine's displacement is fixed, and the throttle butterfly will flow a known quantity of air at any given angle, and the air temp equates to given density of O2). The XB has no way of "knowing" the elevation/ambient air pressure... as you go up (less air) the O2 sensor will sense the motor is beginning to run rich and the ECM in turn will back off the gas to compensate, assuming a corresponding elevation increase. Alternately, if you find yourself in Death Valley on a cool dry night, the system will inject more gas than at sea level to keep the mixture right... with all the infinite possibilities in between.

I actually like the simplicity of this system because simplicity breeds reliability (fewer sensors means fewer to fail). However, since this system uses so many constants (assumptions) and has so few avenues of input, it's important that all sensors be working properly. It would seem that things would have to get fairly out of line before the XB ECM throws a code, unlike a car where so many sensors are in play that a suspect one can be ignored by the software since the others' output can be used to invalidate the info coming from the faulty one.

I guess my point or question is I wouldn't think there'd be any need for adaptation in use... assuming all sensors are OK the system should be figuring this stuff out many times per second. However since there is no MAF, doing anything that gets more air into the engine in a given time interval than the software expects will have the system in state where its "baseline" is too lean... and all the while the O2 sensor is telling the system to play catch up because it knows better.

Your mods are flowing more air into the engine than the stock software expects and you're probably reaching the bounds of the operational ranges that the system can compensate for. At higher elevations in your case the stock ECM operates properly due to the lower O2 content. A rapid decent to more O2 content might very well have the system running too lean... I'd get the race ECM ASAP.
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Fullpower
Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 06:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

some of us are still waiting for the latest attempt at a race ecm.
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Bradyclt
Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 07:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Do the race ECMs have glitches? What about Dynojet or another aftermarket software tuner... Do they have a tunable ECM or software for the XBs yet? I wasn't aware the Buell race ECMs were problematic...
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 08:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

To the best of my knowledge the problematic race ECMs for the 12's have been on overseas models. I am not certain if I heard anyone from the US complain of a ping or bad running yet.
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BadS1
Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 08:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

There was a few that had some problems even some US custmers.Daves even had a bad one when they first set the 12 up for him but they straightened that issue out.
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 08:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I sit corrected then Dana thanks.
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BadS1
Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 08:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Its funny I just popped the Drummer off and put a D&D on and thought....I wonder if this is when I have ECM problems but I don't it runs like a champ.
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Opto
Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 03:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Just for your info the 12 race ecm I've had trouble with was imported directly from the US in Nov last year and was fitted to an export bike in Australia. Don't know if it's the ecm or the bike causing the trouble, wouldn't mind sending the ecm to a reputable 3rd party in the US for testing, since it's doing permanent time on a shelf here in Oz.
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Kaudette
Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 05:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

what are the symptoms of a "bad" race ECM??
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BadS1
Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 08:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Opto I think all BUELLS and ECM'S were imported from the US.Not the bike if it runs well without it.
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 01:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Opto my thought was the US race ECM wasn't meshing with the Export tuned bikes. I would be more then happy to test your Race ECM on mine Opto but I am not sure how soon I could get some dyno runs done to check A/F values.
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Starter
Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 06:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I think what Opto was trying to say is he is unsure of any minor differences unpublished there may be between the US and International bike which would cause problems when US ECMs are used on International bikes or vice versa. On another note anyone tried the 05 XB9 Race ECM in a 03 or 04 bike?
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Opto
Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 02:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thanks Starter.

Wicked, do you already run a race ecm? You wouldn't need to dyno it, if it doesn't work on your bike it will ping and have really bad flat spots with mild acceleration. You would need to get a tps reset when fitting the new ecm though.
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 09:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

No I don't have one Opto, but what I wanted to do was to compare stock VS race VS Race+PCIII I also wanted to check the A/F values and have something printable to show the outcome.
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