| Author | Message | ||
     Uly_pirate |
I have a 2008 Lightning that has been a slight pain since I bought it. When purchased early last year it had 4,000 miles on it and did not run very smooth. I purchased an EBR Race ECM, installed it and the bike ran great for about 3-4k miles. Then it started to have warmup issues and die on idle. Front plug was pretty fouled due to obviously rich mixture. Changed plugs (and inlet seals). Put stock ECM back on and of course it runs like crap again. I know the BUEOD is known to be buggy, so have already tried once to get it upgraded. The local Harley dealer, who was not a Buell dealer, was unable to get it upgraded. Even with corporate HQ tech support. Possible bum ECM. They recommended I try another dealer and if still a failed attempt then ECM is bad. All that aside (sorry for the long story), I also own a 2009 Uly (from new). It has a BUE1D type ECM. Was wondering if there was any harm is plugging that into the Lightning for a test run. | ||
| Froggy |
As long as the Lightning is a XB12 then yes it will work. XB9 models have different programming and it won't run right if at all. | ||
| Uly_pirate |
Thanks Froggy. I installed the Uly ECM on the Lightning and I'm still having issues. Major issue is cold idle. It just won't idle after initial start up. Once it's warm it rarely dies at idle, but stutters and pops occasionally and wants to die. I have recently replaced the intake seals even though I could not prove there was leak. Also, the AFV keeps dropping down to 77-80 range. I'll adjust it to 100, but the ECM just learns to tune it down. Anyway, will see how it does on a medium run with the Uly ECM and go from there. Not really hoping it's much better now. | ||
| Froggy |
My first thoughts would be rear head temperature sensor, or the idle air control valve needs cleaning. My thinking with the temperature sensor is that it is malfunctioning, reporting that it is colder than it really is, resulting in it dumping more fuel into the motor and keeping it in the cold start parameters longer. This is then causing the bike to detect too much fuel from the O2 sensor, and it leans itself out till you get your 77-80 AFV. The IAC will automatically adjust your idle, it may be compounding things, but I believe the temperature sensor should be the first thing you investigate. Having a different ECM may help temporarily as it would have the "wrong" IAC and AFV settings but it would slowly relearn itself back to square one. | ||
| Uly_pirate |
Well the Lightning ran great with the BUE1D ECM. Still has the idle issue, but once warmed up and screaming down the street it ran great. It will be nice to have original ECM updated. As for the idle issue, I have investigated both the IAC and the temp sensor to the best of my current knowledge. I removed and cleaned the IAC. It was not very dirty. I checked the engine temp sensor by comparing the cold temp to the airbox temp sensor (matched) and by watching it during warmup. It also seems fine. Next easiest test is to barrow the IAC off the Uly and see if that fixes it. FYI. The Uly AFV runs around 82%. | ||
| Nobuell |
Uly Pirate - I have been having the same issue with my 08XT. It high idles for a short time then the idle speed drops until it coughs and stalls. Will not idle cold but idles fine once hot. I have an EBR Race ECU in mine as well. I have replaced the following with no change in performance; new intake seals, new IAC, new air temp sensor, new engine sensor, new iridium plugs and new magnecor plug wires. I check the TPS for smooth operation with an analog multi meter. The ECM is tucked away form connector damage in a silicone foam pocket since new. I have not tried the stock ECM yet. I am at a loss. Once warm, the bike runs like normal | ||
| Uly_pirate |
Well, no luck. Swapped out the IAC and the Lightning will still not idle on cold start. During cold start when I hold the rpm at ~1,800 the bike sputters and smoke comes out of the exhaust. Will try to determine if this is oil based or just rich mixture (as I suspect). Nobuell, will keep posting until resolved or when I finally give up. | ||
| Kaveman |
What about the TPS itself? Just another random thought that might be related... | ||
| Firemanjim |
Uly pirate, unless your mapping is WAY off for some reason the only other reason you are getting AFV down that far is the head temp sensor.Does not have to throw a code but it is telling bike at some point that bike is cold and it the adds as much as 160%. Nothing else will really add fuel and you are subtracting up to 23% to make up. | ||
| Livers |
Leaky injector might explain it. | ||
| Uly_pirate |
Firemanjim, the mapping is stock. I think you might be right about the head temp sensor. This morning I hooked up ECMSpy (to a cold bike) and adjusted the AFV to 100%. The bike started and idled fine without any intervention by me on the throttle. Rode for about 30 minutes and noticed that later in the ride the bike hated the 3,900-4,500 rpm range. At the end of the ride I hooked up ECMSpy and the AFV was back down to 77%. Question: Could this also be caused by bad O2 sensor? Livers, I hope it's not a bad injector. I haven't ruled it out. Is there an easy test for that? I'm thinking that since I can make the bike run better by forcing AFV 100% that the injectors are okay. Thoughts? | ||
| Greg_e |
Are you sure that spark is really burning the fuel? Is there excessive oil consumption? (Message edited by greg_e on November 16, 2013) | ||
| Akbuell |
Possibly apples and oranges, but I had a situation with my '01 X-1 with an AFV in the 80% range. The service manual for the X-1 has a procedure for checking a leaking injector. In my case, the rear injector was 'drooling', leading to a rich mixture on the rear cyl. That caused the O2 sensor to lean the entire mixture. As in your case, changing the AFV to 100 only lasted for a while, then back to the low 80's. The test for a tuber involved, IIRC, holding the throttle open and cycling the stop/run switch a number of times. Then look in the intake manifold for fuel. In my case, the area around the rear injector was damp, like it was sweating, hence my description of 'drooling'. Anyway, dealing with the injector solved the issue. Finally, the engine temp sensor can be sending bad data or has shifted calibration, without sending a trouble code. Could be a place to look after the injectors. Hope this helps, Dave | ||
| Uly_pirate |
Update: Lightning is still running poorly. AFV consistently ends up around 77%. I have replaced intake seals, head temp sensor, O2 sensor and spark plugs. Injector leak test is negative, but ordered a new rear injector anyway and will replace it this week. Greg_e, no excessive oil consumption. Will update again soon. Argh, this is frustrating. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Not that I'm sure this is the problem, quite the opposite, but it could be and might be easy to check... Normally when a CPS sensor goes out, it goes when hot, not cold. But it could happen either way. If yours is just dropping the odd pulse when cold, it seems to be it would match your symptoms and it would not throw a code. It also won't show up on ECM Spy. Do you have access to an oscilloscope? You can hook up the probes right to the ECM, you don't even need to remove anything. It could be a ten minute test. | ||
| Firemanjim |
One thing I noticed on a couple bikes here with EBR ecms, was the cold start enrichment was way bigger than a stock bike and carried the big percentages up to temp range where the bike would go into "learn". Both bikes were skewing AFV down as the enrichment percentage was adding fuel while bike was in closed loop.Had long conversations with the EBR guys about it---- took awhile to get my point across. Look at your cold start table. | ||
| Uly_pirate |
Still having the same issue on the Lightning after hours of working on it. The symptom: Cold start idle sputters and dies. Once warm bike runs okay, not great. Severe dead spot in the 4,000-4,500 RPM range. The issue: Turns out the ECM (multiple ECMs) sets the AFV to ~77% after going into closed loop learn. This initially started with the EBR Race ECM, but I have since tried two other stock ECMs on the bike with the same result. Setting AFV to 100% using EcmSpy fixes the problem until the next closed loop learn. Attempted fixes: 1) Pulled spark plugs and rear was very dark indicating rich mixture. Front spark plug appeared normal. Replaced spark plugs. 2) Tested for intake seal leak. Nothing found, but replaced intake seals anyway. No change. 3) Tested head temp sensor. Appeared to operate normal, but replaced engine head temp sensor anyway. No change. 4) Replaced O2 sensor. No change. 5) Tested for leaking injectors. Nothing found, but replaced rear injector. No change. I'm at a total loss right now. My only other guess is something in the O2 sensor wiring. Not enough to trip a code, but enough to fool the ECM into rich mixture. Sounds crazy to me. Thanks for all the comments. This is just an update. I hope to have better news next time. | ||
| Pash |
Have you checked your regulator output? This is a serious question... | ||
| Nobuell |
Uly pirate You have done the same as I. I do not have ECM Spy so I cannot check the mixture. I am at a loss. Regarding the O2 sensor, does the ECM look at it when cold? I was under the impression that the sensor is not considered until operating temperature is reached. Pash, what are your thoughts regarding the regulator? | ||
| Uly_pirate |
Pash, forgot to mention I just replaced the voltage regulator too. I checked and output looks good. But not ruling it out until I start logging during "closed loop learn". Nobuell, I hope to figure this out soon. I'll have the bluetooth dongle working this weekend and log a few runs. Trying out the BUE1D ECM off my Uly tomorrow (again) to make sure it is not the ECM. | ||
| Pash |
A broken voltage regulator could mean you are up to 20V input... This will upset the ECM in terms of reference voltages and the operation of injectors. If you look at the data, the AFV is LOW, i.e. the ECM thinks TOO MUCH fuel is going in so it is reducing the pulse width. This is the opposite effect to a leak... See here: http://www.ukbeg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=180 44 Other things to check are if the spark plugs are leaking, loose ones can give strange effects... | ||
| Uly_pirate |
Finally logged a couple of runs using EcmSpy. And...no help. I set the AFV to 90 prior to the run and the ECM stepped it down to 77 during the run. I used Megalogviewer to view the log and nothing is jumping out at me. The battery voltage looks stable. The only thing that looks like the culprit is the EGO Corr. It obviously runs low and is used to drop the AFV (my theory). Here's a snapshot of the log with what felt are the important measurements and the timeline around when the ECM set the AFV to 77. Not sure where to go from here. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.  | ||
| Pash |
Have you got good frame and engine earthing contact points? i.e. not corroded? | ||
| Pash |
BUT I wouldn't have said 15V was ok... I'll look at some of my traces later today... | ||
| Pash |
Just had a look at traces from both my Uly and Firebolt and 13-15 looks normal. | ||
| Uly_pirate |
Pash, thanks for looking into it. I tried bumping up the O2 sensor limits. Changed low from 0.42 to 0.46 Changed high from 0.56 to 0.61 This did not make any difference. Was just a theory that I could "trick" the ECM into moving the average O2 reading more towards lean, resulting in higher EGO Correction %. I'll double check all grounds and resistance in sensor wires. Is it possible the front injector is leaking and causing a small amount of extra fuel to get sucked into the rear cylinder? Crazy thought. | ||
| Pash |
I dunno. You could put some injector cleaner in the tank. You shouldn't have to trick the ECM into doing anything cos that is just masking the problem you have. Can you run a slave earth cable to the engine from the battery earthing straps? The other thing is that you may have goosed the ECM as a result of the failed regulator, which has come full circle to your original question. | ||
| Uly_pirate |
Update: Set the AFV min value to 82% and the Lightning starts and runs fine. Not perfect, but close. I know this is masking the root cause, but it allows me to focus more on gathering diagnostics. I checked the ground resistance between the battery and the engine and it appears fine. I will try a direct grounding cable just to rule it out. I'll run it for a while like this and then check the plugs to see if it's running rich or lean in either cylinder. At least for now it's back to being a blast to ride.  | ||
| Uly_pirate |
More follow up: I'm chasing a ghost. After setting the AFV min to 82% performance is normal (which is way above most bikes). The good news is that the bike continues to run great (exception stated later). The AFV is now running about 85% on average. So it's not even hitting the minimum anymore. This completely baffles me. I am now so into this that it is crazy. I have a bluetooth dongle, EcmSpy, EcmDroid, TunerPro, MegaLogViewer and more. I'm obsessed with making this bike run great. And yet, in reality it runs better than 99% of the bikes out there. I'm going to take a deep breathe and make incremental improvements. Now for the "later". There is this hesitation/pop when hitting the throttle off idle at any stop. I'm looking into this, but it isn't stopping me from enjoying the ride and I'll start another thread to address this issue. | ||
| Nobuell |
Pirate, have you resolved your idling issue? |
