| Author | Message | ||
     Kiwidave |
I've just recently bought a 2003 XB12 with about 5000miles on it. Getting it ready for the bike inspection that is here in Japan so have put on new tyres, changed back to the original exhaust from a micron and replaced the transmission and engine oil. After changing back to the original quieter exhaust I noticed a ticking noise which sounded unusual but after checking a few websites it sounded pretty similar to what others have been worried about people have said that its pretty common and not to worry. Anyway I have ridden it about 100kms today and the noise seemed to get worse. So I took the prImary cover off and checked the crank nut which was fine and then placed a magnet into the engine oil reservoir and pulled out a number of pieces of metal which you can see in the photo. Any guesses of where they may have come from?  | ||
| Cobra66 |
I think its a harley thing. I noticed the same thing on my with only 6k miles. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I would suggest opening the oil filter. | ||
| Kiwidave |
I cut the oil filter in half and found nothing. I think I'll be talking to the local shop to see if they have any ideas of what it could be. Do any of you guys have any recommendations of where I should go from here, compression test maybe? | ||
| Andersonhdj |
If that made it through the oil pump i would be seriously worried! My guess is no one wants to speculate, but if that found it's way out of your motor, i'd say it's time for a teardown. If you troll through the post's you'll see some 12's have suspect cranks. My 9 went south at very low km's. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
If it came from the primary side I'd be taking a few minutes to closely inspect the teeth on the stator and clutch, also check primary tensioner backing plate. Inspect what you can see of the shift linkage too. You're looking for obvious chipped or broken teeth and cracks. Round parts are generally pretty symmetrical so let you eye try and catch anything generally out of place with the stator and clutch pack. A local Uly rider had some problems with clutch innards breaking. So if initial exam shows nothing you may consider pulling the stator and clutch to inspect closer, and maybe break the clutch down if there's nothing showing following removal of these larger items from you primary. If I was guessing (which I am, actually) I'd say maybe some clutch spring (pressure plate) retainer ring teeth have given up, just due to color, general shape of those fragments, and we know they're steel not aluminum due to the magnet being used to retrieve them. | ||
| Kiwidave |
Thanks for you input guys. As its my first Buell I don't have a lot of knowledge about these bikes but it was fun to ride till now. I think I will have to start to split the engine but as I'm in Japan the prices of parts are a fair bit more than what you pay in the U.S so hopefully won't be too much. I have managed to find a second hand engine for about a $1200 so maybe that will be the way to go if the damage is too bad. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
If your filter is clean and the parts came out of your primary there shouldn't be any need to split the cases. Remember the XB's are not a open trap door style tranny like the tubers, so that material is from something in the primary. | ||
| Andersonhdj |
From your post i understood you to mean the drysump reservoir in the swingarm?? | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Oh!! Crap. My mistake, prolly the oil pump drive gear, those 03's used the tuber style rather than the later bronze "race" part. Rather than split the cases (which you might need to do anyway) you could drop the oil pump out and take a peek underneath the bike to see how the gear looks. On the other hand, part out what's good of the current motor to offset the cost of the purchase of the replacement and you won't be so deep in the hole with your repairs, heads cylinders and pistons can be bolted onto sportsters or tube frame Buells to really wake up their engine, and then you could sell the tranny or lower case too. | ||
| Teeps |
If the metal bits came out of the swing arm reservoir. It's safe to say, they did NOT come from the trans or primary. Additionally, metal bits that size, probably did not come from the engine, by way of the scavenge pump.} (Message edited by teeps on May 07, 2013) | ||
| Kiwidave |
Yes, the pieces came from the swing arm reservoir. While riding the noise was most noticeable when decelerating and at idle. There were no problems with gear changes that I noticed. | ||
| Sifo |
When you did your oil change, was there anything stuck to the magnetic oil plug. Very fine particles are normal, but where there any chunks? I would be curious what is stuck to it now. It might be worth draining the oil to see what's stuck to the drain plug. I'm just having a hard time with the idea that there is much in the way of ferrous metal in the engine that wouldn't be missed if broken apart like the pieces you have pictured. | ||
| Andersonhdj |
What bugs me is chunks that size passing through the scavenge pump. As Sifo says, those bits looked ominous, when i have seen bits like that, the failure has usually been catastrophic, and thats been almost always in wet sump motors. Can you track the history of the machine? Perhaps those are remnants of a previous disaster? At the very least drain the oil, check the plug for bits,strip and check out your oil pump for damage that would indicate those bits passing through. Perhaps post a video of the machine running at idle with some audio,would be interested to hear what you're hearing. | ||
| M1combat |
"If the metal bits came out of the swing arm reservoir. It's safe to say, they did come from the trans or primary. " Ummm... No. | ||
| Kiwidave |
When I changed the oil there was a fair bit amount of fine sludge/ particles stuck to the magnetic oil plug, a bit more than what I'm use to with Japanese bikes I've worked on but not a huge amount and no large particles or chunks of metal that gave me any reason for concern. I went to a mechanic today and he didn't have much of a idea after looking at the bits of metal but said it would be much cheaper to put a used engine into the bike. | ||
| Brumbear |
oil pump gear? | ||
| Sifo |
"If the metal bits came out of the swing arm reservoir. It's safe to say, they did come from the trans or primary. " Ummm... No. I think that comment deserves some explanation. If the oil is kept separate between the engine and primary, I have a hard time seeing how chunks of metal could make the trip. | ||
| Kiwidave |
Hey Sifo, in another thread about crankshaft failure you talked about "detonation" issues being a possible cause for engine damage. Just kind of wondering as the bike usually runs a Micron Exhaust and the ECM is tuned for this system. I replaced the Micron with the stock exhaust/headers as it wouldn't pass due to the noise requirements during the Japanese bike inspection, but the I didn't change the ECM mapping back to stock so it is still running with the setting tuned for the Micron. I rode the bike about 100kms and during that ride I stopped by the a bike shop to check if it would pass the emissions test as I was told it could be too rich and probably wouldn't pass if I didn't change back to the stock settings. The mechanic checked the bike with an emissions tester and said it was well under the emissions limit so I wonder if the bike was previously running too lean with the Micron Exhaust. Is it possible that by using the stock exhaust with the ECM set up for a Micron System it caused damage to the engine in that 100KM journey possibly from "detonation" or other reasons? It seemed to run O.K at the time. | ||
| Sifo |
Dave, I'm going to say that, no, it's extremely unlikely that you did any damage in 100KM. Even with noticeable detonation, you would probably not have issues. Beyond that, the issues that you would likely see would be holes burned in pistons, or main bearing failure. Either one would have you experiencing very clear signs of something DRASTICALLY wrong before you find chunks like that in the oil tank. Where to go from here based on what's known so far? It's still running OK, right? That tells me the valve train is still intact, as well as major bearings. Other sources of ferrous metal that jump out at me would be cylinder liners or oil pump hardware. I doubt that the cylinder liners did that without other disastrous results. The drive gear on older XBs are suspect, and there is a bronze replacement gear available that most say is a worthwhile upgrade. I would probably start with pulling the pump off just to see the condition of things in there, and see if you have the new gear. If all looks good in the pump, something could have let go in the top end, but stayed together well enough to keep running, but that's taking a bit of imagination for me. If you were really worried, you could pull the rocker boxes and see what's going on under them. As someone mentioned though, what's the history of the bike? It may have had a major failure very early that lead to debris being pumped into the swing arm that was never cleaned out. I could see bigger pieces never getting to the magnetic drain plug. I certainly wouldn't jump into splitting the cases yet. Thoughts anyone? | ||
| Teeps |
Sifo Posted on Tuesday, May 07, 2013 "If the metal bits came out of the swing arm reservoir. It's safe to say, they did come from the trans or primary. " Ummm... No. Sorry, my bad. I was able to correct my original post. Sorry again guys. I missed that critical point during the edit. | ||
| Trojan |
Any idea what these bits of metal are....expensive would be my guess  While your checking the primary, have a look at the inside of the primary case itself. If the stator is loose it can rub/hit the inside of the casing and cause damage that looks similar to yours (don't ask how I know!) | ||
| Andersonhdj |
I would still check the pump,no matter where those bits came from they still got pumped back, either now or at sometime in the past. Correct your fuelling issues to lose the detonation,and ride it with a mindful ear. Secure that spare motor anyway, there will always be someone to take it off your hands if you never use it. | ||
| Kiwidave |
Thanks for all the advice guys, it's really helpful. I think I might get the 2nd hand engine as it will help me get back riding sooner and then I can start to strip the damaged engine down when I find time and find out the cause of the problem. I bought the bike through a friend who I phoned last night and he contacted the previous owner to discuss the issues.Sounds like he feels bad and may give me a bit of cash back to help with repairs. I think I got the bike at a fair price and even with the cost of another engine and work I have just done (new tires, servicing etc) it is still much far cheaper than similar bikes on the market. I don't expect the previous owner to give me any money back as when I buy a used bike I understand the risks but if he does I'll probably take it. But I would like to talk with him to get an idea of the history of the bike regarding any major repairs in case the chunks of metal were left over from previous damage. Again, thanks for all your input and it's great that there is a forum here with members such as yourselves. I'll reply again once I find out more about the problem. Cheers Dave | ||
| M1combat |
Maybe I'm confused... You got those bits from the swingarm of an XB yes? The oil in the swingarm comes from the crank case yes? The oil from the trans and primary are in a separate place and don't mix with the oil in the crank case and swingarm... Right? | ||
| Andersonhdj |
Right! Those bits had to have passed through the pump, there's no other way. Dave, sounds like a good plot, break out the spade,think you've possibly opened a can of worms there, make that call real soon! Someone does'nt normally offer cash back on a deal for no reason! | ||
| Sifo |
There are at least two other ways. Some a**hole could have dropped those into the oil tank. Of course that's pure speculation with nothing to support that idea. The other is during manufacturing. I do think the oil pump is a good place to start the inspection. What are the potential sources of ferrous metal from inside the engine? Oil pump. Valve train & cams. Cylinder liner. Crank & rod assembly. Various roller bearings. Who can add to that list? I don't think it's bearing parts or part of the crank assembly. I have real doubts that it would be pieces of a cylinder liner, but even that wouldn't require splitting the cases. No debris found in the oil filter is a good sign too. If the oil pump is found to be in good condition, I would be inclined to simply put the pump back on with the upgraded bronze drive gear if that hasn't already been done. Does anyone know for certain, is there any sort of screen in the oil tank to prevent stuff like this from getting sucked into the oil pump? Typically in a wet sump system there is a screen on the pick up, but I'm not sure what Buell did. | ||
| Andersonhdj |
Sifo, that had also occurred to me, we sometimes saw that with old Brit bikes and even later the 750 K0 - 7 series, seems that an exposed oil cap is an invitation for tomfoolery! Good question about the screen, most the old bikes had removable screens that could be cleaned but can't say i'v noted anything on the XB. Also to question, though off topic, is a sludge trap, If they have one where is it? Old Beesa's had it in the big end journal which had a big screw in the end of it for cleaning, Most Jap 4's had a channel running across the crankcase. As to the origins of the metal i think the oil pump will elucidate the issue somewhat. My XB crank failed with no significant amount of debris. | ||
| Brother_in_buells |
This man had some ideas for making a screen in the oil system, http://www.ukbeg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=160 31 | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
How are the oil filters hooked up in our bikes? I just assumed that it was the same as in my ironhead sportster: on the way from the engine to the oil tank. Those chunks are steel? |
