| Author | Message | ||
     Spacecapsule1 |
yeah it actually runs fine other than the noise and not so perfect fuel injection programming... i'll start with draining and checking the oil and filter. Then I'll have to rotate it to get a look at the oil pump.... | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
I drained the oil and it looks different for sure. there were some shavings on the drain plug, didn't really seem abnormal to me but the oil was glittery with silver... that isn't normal is it? i haven't gotten to the filter yet... oil pan looks like i've been panning for silver.... lots of shavings, flakes, silver dust.. etc. i've seen enough. starting the engine tear down process... thanks for all the ideas. i'll keep updating as i progress with the tear down. (Message edited by spacecapsule1 on October 23, 2012) | ||
| Hughlysses |
Jason- that's definitely not good. Crank assembly can be repaired for about $500 or so; contact Darkhorse. New crank assembly is not much more. Big job, but doable. | ||
| Sifo |
Sorry to hear this. I was hoping there might be something less drastic that was the cause. A lot of metal shavings is a pretty bad sign. One last ditch thing to check, it's got to come off anyway. Take the pump off and give a good looking at. It it's all torn up it might be the source of the metal and explain the low oil pressure. I know the odds of this is very low, but it's worth looking at before splitting the cases. | ||
| Mmcn49 |
>>> the oil was glittery with silver... that isn't normal is it? <<< No. Metal fines as you describe suspended in the oil is not a good thing. Something most likely has failed; you need to find out what and what other damage it may have caused. Unfortunately the only way I know of to do that is to tear the engine down. For what its worth I stopped using Mobile-1 after a single use. The engine made a lot of noise with it. It was so loud that at first I thought that I hadn’t filled the swing arm. The clattering and metallic noises were so bad that I changed it out after only several hundred miles. I’ve never had any noise issues with HD, Syn-3 or Red Line. An HD mechanic on another forum speaks poorly of Mobile-1. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
my plan was to look at each part first before i continue to the next step. maybe i'll get lucky and not have a bad crank. speaking of, what exactly does go bad regarding the crankshaft and what would a repair consist of? | ||
| Sifo |
About the only inspection you can do of the connecting rod bearing is to check for play. Exactly how much play is allowed, I'm not certain though. The main bearings will be visible once the case is split. ANY visible pitting on the balls is a bad thing and will lead to failure. The crank shaft will have to be disassembled to actually see the rod bearings. If you've had something going bad down there, I wouldn't risk reusing any of the bearings. Ball bearing just don't deal well with foreign objects floating in the oil, and once the are a little damaged, they will go bad. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
you guys aren't gonna believe this: I'm working on rotating the engine and find that one of the heal guard bolts is seized so i have to drill it out. Done with that, not a big deal surprisingly enough. Then i find an intake manifold bolt missing. no intake leaks though. ha! good ol' james gaskets. After that i was working near the rear engine mount and just happen to look in the area only to discover that the pivot bolt has worked itself completely loose and OUT of its home in the frame on the opposite side. The mount appears to be wedged kinda sideways so the engine hasn't dropped, unless the rear tie bar is what's still keeping it from dropping... good grief. its good thing i parked it when i did or my problems would be much worse... (Message edited by spacecapsule1 on October 23, 2012) | ||
| Mmcn49 |
What caused the drop in oil pressure? What caused your Metal-Flake oil? | ||
| Hughlysses |
The entire thread on my engine catastrophe is here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/617384.html There are some possibilities beside the bottom end bearings: lifter rollers, oil pump, etc. It's doubtful it was the pump as it seems that the oil filter would have caught the debris if that were the case. If it's a failed rod bearing, it'll be obvious when you tear into the engine. Here's an illustration of how much play I found: | ||
| Greg_e |
My noise was coming from worn out cylinders and lifters, you might get that lucky with it. (Message edited by Greg_E on October 23, 2012) | ||
| Reepicheep |
That piston looks familiar!  | ||
| Hughlysses |
That piston looks familiar! Is it now a paper weight or an ash tray? Glad it went to a good home. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
well its official. crank bearing is toast. Like the video above but much more play it seems. lifters, pushrods and rocker arms are beautiful. oil pump is badly scored. the rod in the pressure relief valve will not come out, only the spring and the plug. hard to say if that happened before or after the crankshaft bearing. cylinder walls are badly scored as well as the piston skirts. there's a LOT of buildup on top of the pistons, they seem saturated with oil. is this the first 08 crank failure? (Message edited by spacecapsule1 on October 24, 2012) | ||
| Ulynut |
Dang. | ||
| Akbuell |
Really sorry to hear that. Was very much hoping it was not something that serious. Dave | ||
| Sifo |
That sucks. Just curious, do you run it hard? | ||
| Greg_e |
I would vote for valve seals gone bad as your cause for worn out cylinders and stuff. Crank bearing certainly didn't help. Only two things that you can do at this point: #1 find an engine to swap #2 BIG BORE KIT! #2 needs a crank rebuild and might as well balance it while they have it apart. You might want to go really big and bore out the cases to get the biggest bore possible. While it is out, I suggest changing the front and back motor mount, or at least the back mount since it is hard to get at when installed in the bike. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
Sifo, at times I rode it like I stole it, but usually its commuting and touring duty. Daily, year round, rain or shine. I didn't ride it hard often enough to consider that as a possible cause, but who knows. My wife just told me that I do run it hard but to her that means as often as i can and as fast as i can. you guys be the judge on that. now with all the grand ideas coming to mind i'll end up with this thing in pieces for a year... thanks greg. :-) well gang, thanks for your suggestions. I guess this thread will die soon as progress will take a while, dictated by the budget. I'll let everyone know what's going on from time to time as i slowly progress. 1st step is darkhorse crankworks for the crankshaft repair (and lighten and balance.....just for you, greg ).  | ||
| Greg_e |
If you are going to do a big bore kit of any size, you should let them know exactly what kit you are going to do, might matter for the balance. I say balance it because half the work of repairing the crank is part of a balance job too, so you might as well see what kind of price they can offer, Maybe you find out that a new crank bearing is really fairly cheap and you want to skip the lighten/balance to save some money. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Most likely, the bearing failure caused the cascade. Tiny bits of very hard bearing material will really chew up parts. As Greg suggested, give the heads some attention. It is time for a good valve job anyway. Make sure the valves and guides are within spec, and use the best valve guide seals you can get. One suggestion is to send the heads to Cycle Rama for that purpose. They are top notch. Obviously, the cylinders will need attention too. My personal advice is if you want go big bore, source cylinders with iron liners for the sake of long term reliability. Since you have to do a full disassemble job. Don't forget to show the transmission some attention. It would suck to go to the trouble of a rebuild to have the trans cough up in a few thousand miles. The good news is the motor will be in better, more reliable condition than it was when it was new if good attention to detail is paid. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
...since i have to get the crank repaired anyways, you guys think I should go short stroke? I've been considering big bore/short stroke hoping for a slightly smoother running engine. Maybe the 90 inch bore and the xb9 stroke so I'd still have about the same displacement? I don't know. I need to get all these crazy idea out of my head... | ||
| Sifo |
That's pretty much how I ride mine too. It sees plenty of easy miles, but it does get pushed at times. I just put it up for it's 50K service and threads like this make me nervous. There's a few things that need attention, but at least the residue on the magnetic oil plug still looks normal. I really like the power the 12 delivers, but I do often wonder how a short stroke version would be. You are at a point where you can largely do what you want without much extra cost involved. My only concern would be not hurting the reliability. I spend too much time too far from home to worry about not being able to make it back home. | ||
| Hughlysses |
well its official. crank bearing is toast. Like the video above but much more play it seems. lifters, pushrods and rocker arms are beautiful. oil pump is badly scored. the rod in the pressure relief valve will not come out, only the spring and the plug. hard to say if that happened before or after the crankshaft bearing. cylinder walls are badly scored as well as the piston skirts. there's a LOT of buildup on top of the pistons, they seem saturated with oil. That whole scenario sounds VERY much like mine. AFAIK yours is the first failed 08-up crankshaft on Badweb. The short stroke/big bore XB engine would be very cool. Buell's race program apparently built quite a few of those before the official release of the XBRR; it'd be great if you could tap into some of that knowledge. Darkhorse may have some of that info. Of course, if you're going short stroke, you probably just want to buy a new 08-up XB9 crank. BTW- plan on spending plenty of time cleaning out your swingarm. | ||
| Fast1075 |
A BadWebber races a short stroke big bore engine. I forget who it is though. | ||
| Greg_e |
I find that the 1050cc kit is plenty for me. And if you are going to go with the shorter stroke, then you might as well buy a new 2008+ XB9 crank. I didn't think about the transmission, but it probably should get some good inspection while things are apart. I'd also take a really close look and measure on the cam bearings to make sure there wasn't some damage from all that metal. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
If were to get really crazy and go for an 88" kit, would the stock throttle body and headers become a restriction? I still can't decide between short or long stroke. I need to find a 9 to try out.... | ||
| Hughlysses |
You could consider going the cheap route: http://www.ebay.com/itm/09-2009-BUELL-XB12R-XB12-X B-12-R-FIREBOLT-ENGINE-MOTOR-CASES-SHORT-BLOCK-028 9-/300789513983?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&h ash=item460873beff&vxp=mtr Slap your heads on this, re-install and you'd be running in a week. Sell off leftover parts from your old engine and recover most if not all of the cost. | ||
| Greg_e |
Potentionaly the TB and muffler would be a problem. The stock 9 headers are a smaller diameter, the stock 12 headers are the same size as the exhaust port. You will need a less restrictive muffler to get full advantage of the increase, and a bored out TB might be worth doing, I think EricZ or DeanH have had this done and gained a few mm in diameter from having it bored out. You may also want to change fuel injectors to the higher flow version, there are a few posts on this as well. These injectors are very common and not too expensive. Alternate might be the racing fuel pressure regulator (or both). Head work in the ports and valves would also be worth doing, but not everything needs to be done at once unless you have lots of money sitting around. Fix the crank, fix the cylinders, do a valve job that fits your budget. Do the extra performance stuff next time you have the cash. How much power do your really need? Big bore can come out to about the same price as a stock rebuild, that's one reason why I recommended it. As I said, I'm happy with the power I get from my 1050 kit with 12TB, 9 headers, and stock 9 muffler. Acceleration is brisk enough that there is little time to think about launching to shifting into second gear, it always seems to come on too quickly if I had that foot down from a stop. It won't wheely the way I ride, but I'm also a light weight so it just accelerates faster without lofting the front wheel. If I worked a little harder and stayed sitting upright it would probably lift in first and second. It would probably be more likely to lift if I ever get the 12 primary changed over so the engine has more leverage against the wheel so in your case I would expect it to be fine. If I put the god awful loud Jardine on it and tuned it up, I'm sure I would get wheel lift with little effort. If this is the best way to judge performance I don't know, mine runs like a fox from the hen house when I get in the throttle and I'm perfectly happy with the engine output. I don't feel the need to have 200+ horsepower on the street. One thing you would want to do if you go with a shorter stroke is tweak the redline, I forget the exact value but the shorter stroke motors red line several hundred RPM higher. You may want to change the instrument gauge background to reflect this change. | ||
| Sifo |
My understanding is that the current injectors on the XB12 are near their limits. Looking at the '06 race maps the highest value I see is 250. It can go up to 255 max. Not much room left. I would hope that the makers of the kit would be able to point you in the right direction though. |
