| Author | Message | ||
     86bgn |
Ok... The bikes come lean from the factory (14.7) Cool, smooth and fast running bikes run a little richer. When you add a K&N and pipe you make it run even leaner. If you add fuel to the fuel maps then the factory ecm tries to lean it out again. How do you prevent this from happening any way other than disabling closed loop and open loop learn? Thanks! | ||
| Froggy |
Tune it with 14.7 in closed loop mode, and richer when outside that mode. This allows you to make great power when on the throttle, run cool all the time, and still get 65mpg when you are cruising. | ||
| 86bgn |
Hey Froggy, This is what is making me crazy... I can data log until I am blue in the face, the bike runs great for a short time then starts learning, and getting leaner... Maybe I am not data logging the correct way. Should I: disable closed loop disable open loop learning set Min and Max AFV to 100 then data log change the maps set Min and Max AFV back to 60/150 enable open loop learning enable closed loop then ride until it starts learning again repeat until the rear AFV stays at 100 What’s weird is that sometimes the rear AFV shows 100 but the bike is obviously getting leaner. I don’t know what’s up with that. ???? | ||
| 86bgn |
Are we all sure that TunerPro works correctly???? | ||
| 86bgn |
I got it, disable closed loop, disable open loop learning and then tune it on a dyno by changing the maps and timing! | ||
| Andymnelson |
Here is 1 way:  | ||
| 86bgn |
Hey Andymnelson, it looks like your in Kansas City too... Do you have any experience tuning on a 08-up XB?? | ||
| Andymnelson |
Yes I am, but no I don't. All Buells I have owned and worked on are '07 and older and can use ECMSpy. I'd love to help you if your bike was older! | ||
| 86bgn |
Are there any bullers that get together in Kansas City? other than the normal sport bike crowd that is... | ||
| Andymnelson |
Dunno, there a few here...but we just moved here about about 9 months ago and I have not gotten to know any of them yet. A bummer too- I knew a ton of them in MN and we got together regularly as well as helped maintain each other's bikes! | ||
| 86bgn |
I think once Gails or HD dissolved the B.R.A.G. club everyone must have disappeared into the wood work. It does suck, I am just not into hanging out with the sport bike group here in KC. To young and to many shenanigans I guess. I have tuner pro working and can tune the bike, it just appears that the only way to really get it right is disabling closed loop and open loop learning and get it on a dyno with a wide ban. With the stock tune, K&N and a magnaflow it put out 90hp, and was really really lean. I know it is making more now but would like to get it as close to dialed in as I can. | ||
| Pash |
How lean was it? What RPMs was it lean at? | ||
| 86bgn |
Really it was lean pretty much everywhere... But that is to be expected with the stock tune. | ||
| Pash |
What measurements were you getting? | ||
| 86bgn |
I will have to get the dyno / wideband print off when I get home. If I remember right, idle was bouncing from 16 and up, then the run went a little rich at lower rpm, say 1500-2200 then lean again to somewhere around say 4000 rpm until the ecm started correcting it to 14.7 until red line. With richer maps, closed loop turned off and open loop learning disabled the bike feels so much stronger and pulls way harder. It idles better and is nice and smooth. The only drawback is my fuel economy has taken a bit of a hit but that may be due to my increased usage of throttle. Just a whole different animal. I was talking to the local VP of the Kansas City Ducati club and he said that Ducati race tunes are all done in open loop. I search some of the Ducati forums and it appears that most of the new bikes with the Delphi ECM run like crap. People have been disabling the o2 sensor and are really happy about it. | ||
| 86bgn |
If you want to see how lean at idle these bikes are wait until dark and let it idle for a while, my front header glows orange with the stock tune. That just isn’t right, the bike runs way cooler richened up. | ||
| Andymnelson |
Yes and no. Works great as long as you never change elevation very much. Take a run into the mountains and things will surely change. | ||
| 86bgn |
Hey Andymnelson, I don’t think that is fact though. I have talked to several people that have taken it to the mountains and they didn’t experience any problems at all… | ||
| 86bgn |
I think DDFI-3 has a MAP sensor? Not sure about the other systems though... | ||
| Pash |
Headers glow red as there is no advance at idle, hence burn finishes later and exhaust is hotter. They do this to make the idle more benign and easier to land on after shutting the throttle. I normally set the base advance to 7 deg in the 4 quadrants around idle and back off the adjuster. | ||
| 86bgn |
Wouldnt more advance make it run even leaner? I know for sure that when I richened up the idle, it idles a LOT smoother, the header is not glowing, and there is a big difference in the heat coming off the bike. There seems to be a lot of Buellers that think these v-twins should operate super lean, and then there are a lot that think richer is better. My personal experience is that my bike, is totally different now, and that is for the better. It runs cooler, idles and accelerates smoother, pulls way harder and sounds all around healthier. I guess that is why power commanders are such a popular add on with other bikes. If super lean idles, and government mandated emissions were where the power and performance was, why would anyone be doing anything else... | ||
| Pash |
Lean mixtures burn slower, so you need to start the burn earlier (more ignition advance). Leaner mixtures also burn more efficiently, however if you go too lean you end up with incomplete combustion (but this is AFRs of 20 or more). Leaner mixtures don't make as much power as richer mixtures as there is less energy (fuel) there. You are really only interested in power at WOT, hence a lean mixture at part throttle is fine, you just end up opening the throttle a tad more (which makes things better as the engine is less throttled and hence less pumping losses - engine struggling to such air in). To go from one engine operating point to another, you have the acceleration enrichment. There is much to gain by playing with this, as if you were to ride a well set up S1 with a Mikuni, you would see a much better throttle response than your XB. And, finally, when I talk about richer and leaner mixtures I am referring to 10% either side of stoichiometric. The important thing is that you are happy with the way your bike runs as it is now, however it is far from optimised as you are seeing from your gas mileage. | ||
| 86bgn |
"S1 with a Mikuni, you would see a much better throttle response than your XB." That is so true... I had a M2 that had all of the thunder storm stuff installed with a Mikuni and it would wheelie just rolling into the throttle in second gear. Super smooth. Yes the loss in mileage sucks, but I have not been successful doing it any other way. Just this morning I rode in, closed loop disabled, open loop learning disabled, my maps that were created using lots of data logging and then I richened up both front and rear maps 3 points and I am amazed at how smooth the bike runs. I know if I turn on the open loop learning and re enable closed loop it all goes to hell in a hand basket! So I guess my thoughts are until I can find some other way of doing this, I am going to sacrifice some fuel economy for everything else I am gaining. | ||
| 86bgn |
Pash, do you know where in tuner pro you are able to set the RPM and TPS range that activates open loop enrichment? I could flash a stock tune to it with open loop idle and then set the fuel enrichment to engage at say, 50 to 255 or 50 and like 4000 RPM? So then when I start to lay on the throttle it goes open loop or when I am at 50 and 4000 it is open loop. Under those two I would still get the mileage. | ||
| M1combat |
Tune the closed loop learn cells to 14.7. There's NO reason not to aside from an interest in wasting fuel. Tune the rest of the map however you'd like. Maybe disable open loop learn, you'd have to ask around about that. I'm not so familiar with the newer ECM. | ||
| 86bgn |
Hey M1combat, thanks for replying… When you said "There's NO reason not to aside from an interest in wasting fuel" These are my reasons, Power, smoothness, cooling effect and a noticeably happier air cooled v-twin. Not to mention way more enjoyable to ride. My header is not glowing orange, my leg is growing back skin and the bike even sounds deeper. The problem with 14.7 is it runs rough, hot / lean and there is simply less power and drivability down low and in the midrange. It seems that you either get fuel economy in closed loop or you get everything else with open loop ddfi-3. Not both, unless of course, you have the magic secret, but I have not found anyone that has been able to talk about it. I wish someone would, but I have scoured the Buell forums for at least 6-7 months and have come up empty. | ||
| 86bgn |
This is from Car Craft, it is geared more towards carburetors but it is still air fuel ratios and the symptoms of different ones... "Best Power We mentioned the stoichiometric air-fuel ratio (14.7:1) that is the ideal ratio for lowest emissions, but this isn't the best ratio for power. It used to be that 12.5:1 was considered the best power ratio, but with improved combustion chambers and hotter ignition systems, the ideal now is around 12.8:1 to 13.2:1. This is roughly 13 parts of air to one part fuel. It's what combustion engineers call an excess fuel ratio and is intended to ensure that all the air is used to support the combustion process. This is because air is the oxidizer in combustion. Too many enthusiasts think that adding additional fuel beyond the ideal to create a richer mixture will make more power. This doesn't work because you can only burn the fuel when you have enough air to support combustion. That's why engines make more power when you add a supercharger or nitrous--you're shoving more air in the cylinder so that you can burn more fuel. Regardless of the amount of air in the cylinder, it still requires a given ratio of fuel to burn. Add too much extra fuel, and power will decrease. When it comes to fuel mileage and increased fuel efficiency, this ratio changes again. All new cars run at 14.7:1 air-fuel ratio at part throttle because this is the lowest emission point. But depending upon the engine, it's possible to run an engine at leaner mixtures like 16:1 or more at part throttle to gain mileage. The difficulty with this is that drivability and throttle response suffers at these ratios. Engine response is lazy and stumbles are commonplace. Each engine will be different, but there is fuel mileage to be gained by fine-tuning your carburetor. Don't be intimidated by these lean mixtures at part throttle. You won't burn the engine up since it is making very little horsepower at part throttle cruise--often less than 30 hp. " Now if you go stick your stock tuned (14.7) closed loop bike on a wideband you will see 16.1 and higher at idle and lean all the way into open loop. The symptoms that they describe in that short Car Craft article are all things XB's are prone too. If I could get what I have right now in closed loop, I would be all over it. Someone please tell me how? Thanks for all of the great input to my post, it makes a great discussion! | ||
| Pash |
Hi I have no idea where it is in Tuner Pro, but the www.ecmspy.com site tells you the EEPROM addresses, and ECMSpy will give you a useful HMI to change it, but you shouldn't need to. There is also a tuning guide on the ECMSpy website that helps as a guide to the steps you need to take. The very first response you got from Froggy is basically the way to go. Back to some of the other stuff you have read. 14.7:1 is only best for emissions if you have a catalyst fitted, this AFR gives you some CO, uHCs, NOx, O2, CO2, H2O but mostly N2. These gases are present, in order, because; CO - there was not enough oxygen in in the mixture to allow combustion to complete (CO2 to be made) - caused by non-perfectly mixed charge - or the flame being quenched by the cylinder wall / valve pockets / top ring land uHC - same as above NOx - Caused by high temperatures followed by a rapid reduction in temperature O2 - Not enough fuel to use all the oxygen, the opposite to the CO and uHC argument CO2 and H2O are the products of perfect combustion N2 is inert and only plays a part in the NOx reaction The catalyst allows the reaction to continue and increase the amount of CO2 and H2O produced. If you were to have no catalyst, a leaner mixture would give you better emissions (lower NOx due to lower cylinder temperatures and lower uHCs - in fact the lower the uHCs, the more efficient the burn). The lambda sensor used for closed loop acts as a switch, with the switching point at 14.7, hence in closed loop the AFR jumps either side of this level. If you are measuring 16:1 on a reliable instrument, two reasons spring to mind: Firstly, you are measuring too far down the exhaust and inducting air, especially at idle where the throttle is closed and gases in the exhaust make their way back into the cylinder. Secondly, the front pot is running lean, as on pre-10 models there is no closed loop control. | ||
| 86bgn |
Hey Pash, "Firstly, you are measuring too far down the exhaust and inducting air, especially at idle where the throttle is closed and gases in the exhaust make their way back into the cylinder. Secondly, the front pot is running lean, as on pre-10 models there is no closed loop control." What was used to measure was a the standard copper tubing wide band instrument that was certified and connected to the dyno jet . (not saying this is good, or bad) The shop running the dyno is, not only very reputable here in Kansas City, but is also known throughout the country for some of his turbo bikes and engine builds. I was assuming that all of the symptoms you read about all of the time with xb’s (excessive heat from the exhaust, stumbling off idle, popping on decal) was associated with lean mixtures. I richened mine up, and they all went away. You said that the front “pot” is running lean…. So, the front cylinders on pre-10 models are not even part of closed loop? The front just runs off the MAP and open loop enrichment? Really, I am not trying to debate anything with you, so please, I hope no one takes it wrong, because I dont know, that is for sure. I am just trying to get to the bottom of it all. I really wish that there was more factory support or input for guys like me that didn’t pony up the $750.00 for the ecm and tuning software. Hell, at least I bought the bike. Instead of taking an interest in what is obtainable with “tools” like Tuner Pro and ECM Spy, all EBR says is that I am simply using the wrong “tools” to tune with. That really sucks for the guys that don’t want to leave a factory filter and exhaust on. Almost a slap in the face when you can basically pick up any flavor Jap bike, stick a filter, whatever exhaust you want, slap on a power commander at your local dyno jet shop and leave with a killer running bike. | ||
| M1combat |
"The very first response you got from Froggy is basically the way to go." Which is exactly what I said too. Tune learning area for 14.7. Tune the rest of the map however you would like. If the new ECMs work significantly different from the older ones I don't know what to tell you. If they don't, then it's that simple. "Power, smoothness, cooling effect and a noticeably happier air cooled v-twin. Not to mention way more enjoyable to ride. My header is not glowing orange, my leg is growing back skin and the bike even sounds deeper." You don't need power at steady state throttle (where the bike learns). Smoothness will be taken care of once you've tuned it correctly outside of the learn areas (some of them are things like accelerator pump etc...). I can see your point with the cooling effect, but good power requires a HOT chamber. Tune it like I said and it WILL be happy. |
