| Author | Message | ||
     Vr1203 |
If they would like to really sell Buells call them Harley Davidsons. Duh. Its called, BRAND RECOGNITION or the art of marketing .} Too proud I guess. Oh yea , paint them orange and black  | ||
| Court |
Yeah....Lexus is getting ready to rebadge everything "Toyota".  | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
malcom, HD owns 98% of Buell. | ||
| Court |
Malcom: Harley-Davidson does indeed own 98% of Buell. Harley-Davidson is also saavy enough to appreciate the gap they cover in the market by keeping the world guessing at the very nature of the association between the "Sporty Buell" and Sportster Harley-Davidson". Sometimes this anables you to cover not only the bases, but the blurred real estate between. Any dealer who let's any prospect pass, except for the guy wanting the NTM 250MX needs remedial sales training. It's a neat business relationship and had little to do with pride. Pride, I confess, and egos contantly knock at the door, but since 1987 I have never seen a HD annual report with the language "against our better business judgement and contrary to the interests of stockholders, we acted to satisfy our pride...." It influences everything thank goodness, but is not the proximate cause of most business, including the current composition of ownership. Don't get hung up on it, just ride the bike and have fun. Court | ||
| Anonymous |
The initial question in this string is a good one. But here is how it seems to me, backed by the knowledge that I have. First, H-D owns 100% of Buell, as of 2003. That's a matter of record. The corporation is pretty freakin' smart. I think that is a matter of record, too. Judge it by the stock. Being actually knowledgeable, they know re-badging Buells and painting them black and orange won't work. Duh. Sportbike customers are not that dumb, nor are they enamored with H-D motorcycles. Obviously anyone with a name of VR1203 is, but buddy, you are in a tiny minority. The research has been done to prove it. If Toyotas could be sold to Mercedes customers, they wouldn't have started Lexus. Honda made the same smart move with Acura. If Honda could suck in their pride and start a luxury motorcycle division, they might actually be able to compete with H-D in that market. Might. But until they do, it is guaranteed and proven they'll have to take one hideous bath after another on products like the Rune, and be forced to sell their cruiser products at half the price of Harley-Davidsons. Buell is wholly owned by H-D, Inc., but is a separate division from the H-D motorcycle division. Therefore it has a separate and much smaller budget, and needs to meet separate financial goals. You could certainly suggest that H-D invest more in marketing Buell, but these decisions are made by really bright folks, and in fact Buell is growing. From what I can see, it appears that in the master corporation's opinion, things are good. Sales are up, export sales are even higher than US sales (a GOOD thing for H-D's corporate image), ads are being run, a racing program is in place, and new innovative products are coming out at a steady pace. Are there going to be Honda levels of new product introduction each year? Not a chance. Are we going to see Harley-Davidson or Honda levels of advertisement? Not a chance right now. What happens to companies whose investments in ads and promotions exceed product availabilty, quality and performance, as well as income? Can you say Indian and Excelsior-Henderson? It won't happen at Buell, there is a smart balance going on. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
But until they do, it is guaranteed and proven they'll have to take one hideous bath after another on products like the Rune, and be forced to sell their cruiser products at half the price of Harley-Davidsons. I agree that the Rune is hideous & I would'nt take one for free. But Hondas cruiser sales have really started to take off the last few years after they introduced the VTX lineup. The Shadows were always a decent bike but never lit the world on fire, whereas the VTX is selling quite well & Honda, as well as Kawasaki is actually starting to make some progress finally in regards to cruiser sales. And they also arent half the price of HD's, the average HD sells for what..15-17K? The Hondas & others are now up into the 10-12K range, with several matching the HD's price. (Message edited by dynarider on August 07, 2004) | ||
| Gonen60 |
And they also arent half the price of HD's, the average HD sells for what..15-17K? The Hondas & others are now up into the 10-12K range, with several matching the HD's price. We all know the bottom line to this equation. The Japanese Cruisers do not Have the highly worshiped HD badging, or the V-twin potato-potato-potato motor music. All sort of sad, but true all the same... I still believe HD could release a Sportbike, full fairing, HD colors, HD badging, that could and would sell very well. | ||
| Midknyte |
Anon - I agree, especially in regards to over-advertising beyond production capabilities. For the record, I want to state in this thread that I am impressed and happy with the way things are and are progressing. Could be better, but that's what you call progress - and that is what is happening, which is good (except in cases where individual dealers are choosing not to play along, at all or in part, which we as customers need to play out the economics of the situation for them and say screw it, I'm going to take my $ a dealer who cares about what I do.) | ||
| Court |
>>>>Can you say Indian and Excelsior-Henderson? Don't get me started. Indian RIP. Excelsior-Henderson folks can suck hot gas as far as I am concerned. When Erik and I were in Daytona in 1996 the Hanlons, along with all 12 months worth of Playmates were there. Erik was not only tired but sick as a dog and one of the Hanlon's made a just plain rude comment. The only upside was Erik's "I did it the old fashioned way, I built a motorcycle first" comment. It's a matter of purely personal opinion and for the record I get along quite handsomely with folks from a host of motorcycle companies and publications, but the Hanlons were true horse's asses, eclipsed in "shortbusabilty" only by their investors. Buell has been a great investment for Harley-Davidson and Erik Buell, on his testiest of days, has remained a gentlemen. "Watch the person; the company won't be far behind" - Court 2004 Court | ||
| Vr1203 |
I still believe HD could release a Sportbike, full fairing, HD colors, HD badging, that could and would sell very well. Me too. I think the country and motorcycle community is dying for a kick butt good ole USA Harley Davidson sport bike. Could'nt it be a low volume "special edition"? Like the Mike Hailwood Ducati released a few years ago. It really didn't have to compete with anything(would'nt have to worry about getting bashed by the media) but it did show very well. Helped with the image and all that. Too bad the "research" doesn't show it. I get alot of attention and envy when I ride my bike .  If Buellcould suck in their pride and start a sportingmotorcycle division, they might actually be able to compete with insert your favoriate brand herein that market. Might. But until they do, it is guaranteed and proven they'll have to take one hideous bath after another on products like the XB9s Sorry I couldn't resist  | ||
| Court |
>>>it is guaranteed and proven Excellent...that'll take the pressure off you. Show me the proof. While you are proving, convince me Buell WANTS to compete with Yamaha and Suzuki. Thanks for stepping up and committing to enlighten us. Court | ||
| Scrap |
I'm sure there is an import site somewhere you can post... sorry I could'nt resist.. | ||
| Vr1203 |
Sorry, its just a discussion after all.Don't kick me off, I'll be man "without a country" again! Being a smart a** in print is different than person, you can't see me smiling. | ||
| Court |
No one is kicking you off....heck, Ijust got you enlightened. Now go spread the word about grill guards! | ||
| Blake |
"And they also arent half the price of HD's, the average HD sells for what..15-17K? The Hondas & others are now up into the 10-12K range, with several matching the HD's price." You conveniently forget that the Japanese cruisers typically sell at a significant discount, while the HD's still in many markets, like the one here in Texas, garner significant markups. None of the Japanese cruisers I've seen, and I've seen them all, can compete with the quality of the Harley-Davidson machines. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Blake, not talking quality here, purely pricepoint. My 96 HD is one of the best built machines I have ever owned. And some markets are still playing the markup game, I know on the easy coast they are & as you mentioned Texas is. Here in the midwest though, the days of the waiting lists are long gone & there are many many dealers I can go to & get a bike for msrp. | ||
| Deerhunter17 |
In terms of the television marketing $$$, I have can only remember seeing one harley commercial in the past year, the one that has the guy defending his 6k dinning room purchase over a Harley. It seems, at least in TV land, the marketing $ are comparable ( for Buell and HD ) Then again, I don't pay too much attention to commercials... | ||
| Blake |
Still very few if any customers pay MSRP for a Japanese cruiser. MSRP on a 1203 Sportster is not too bad, but I bet you'd be hard pressed to find any new Sportster for MSRP. Glad I prefer my Buell. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
I bet you'd be hard pressed to find any new Sportster for MSRP. Come to the midwest, new 04 sporties for msrp are very easy to get. Out east they would be $2000-4000 more. | ||
| Midknyte |
"If they would like to really sell Buells call them Harley Davidsons..." I, respectfully, disagree. You could say that the bikes are what and where they are today because of the [finally] backing of and inclusion into the HD family. But that only gets you half way in my book. Erik is the man, the dreamer, the one with the ideas and the persistence that brought these bikes to fruition. I want his name on my bike. And I think that anyone, whether they knew or understood the lineage of the bikes or not, will come to a point that they feel the same when they do. I also want a bike with an HD nameplate. A Dyna or a Softail. I'm just not feeling old enough to step into those shoes. I think the separation bodes well for attracting younger buyers and that is a clear and documented goal for the company. | ||
| Midknyte |
Heh, actually, I do have his name on my bike. Literally. EB, if yer readin - thank's again for the autograph. That you do what you do is one thing. Doing that and making yourself accessable to your fans is the icing, the cherry, and the ice cream scoop on the side! | ||
| Easy_rider |
I've got to admit, a black & orange Buell with a fake HD badge would be a good for a laugh and would look cool in the process, but when you think Harley, you think cruiser. There are a number of dealers that don't want to venture into the non-cruiser realm and like Midknyte says, vote with your $. I'm still trying to figure out why the dealer in town that sells Harley's and Japs doesn't have Buells. My dollars go to the dealership that has them. Gotta love the "Built a motorcycle first" comment. | ||
| Midknyte |
See this http://www.users.qwest.net/~kbbeckius/buell/orange_grey.jpg from this thread http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/32777/66610.html Orange over black turns out awesome. | ||
| Vr1203 |
QUOTE....I've got to admit, a black & orange Buell with a fake HD badge would be a good for a laugh and would look cool in the process, .... you must me talking about me.However I have a real badge on my bike. }  | ||
| Budo |
Blake said "None of the Japanese cruisers I've seen, and I've seen them all, can compete with the quality of the Harley-Davidson machines." Ok, you need to qualify that for me. It has been my experience and impression that the quality i.e. reliability, fit and finish, etc.. from the metric bikes (especially Honda) is the best. So, tell me where I am wrong. | ||
| Outrider |
As a former Intruder 1400 owner, I have found the quality of the metal used and the plating is usually the disappointing part of the Japanese cruisers. They look great but deteriorate quicker than the equivalent American produced HD parts. Note: I did not reference HD's imported parts, especially their plated plastics which are pretty shabby in the long run. Until a few years ago when the aftermarket finally started making bling bling for the Japanese cruisers, the bikes were relatively poor investments. Now with the help of the aftermarket, they can hold their value and possibly appreciate some. Incidentally, this opinion is shared by many of my friends that owned Honda, Kawasaki and Yamaha cruisers as well. Especially the friend that owned Kawasaki's Indian knock-off. He spent big bucks on redoing that bike and lost a bundle even though it was featured on Bike Week a few years ago. | ||
| Deerhunter17 |
No doubt these foreign bikes are reliable, but as for the workmanship in quality and finish, HD beats the pants off em. I work in the steel indusrty,have been around metals most of my life, the quality of foreign metals pale in comparison to the domestic market. Just look at the welds on an HD or BUell, and compare them to a Kawasaki.... not even close | ||
| 984_cc |
All the European mags complain about H-Ds corroding in a very short period of time (even though they're not suppose to). My Buell has corrosion on some of it's bolts already. My Kawasakis do not. They range from 4 years to 32 years old. I have compared quality between the Japanese bikes. Honda is not at the top. Kawasaki, Yamaha and Suzuki are all better. Although Honda is still good, people have this misconception that Honda has a superior quality about them, even their cars. But, if you look close at seems, and feel what the control switches are like, you can see that Honda is not the best. Quite a few American cars are put together better than a Honda. Their older cars are rust buckets too. Davidsons can't compare to Japanese quality. I would say my Buell can't compare either. The electrical tape on the wiring looks hoky, the finish on the wheels isn't the best, the controls (turn signal switch, horn button etc.) are not as nice and some of the bolts came pre-stripped for me. The quality of my Buell compares to a Honda 599 I just recently looked at. Remember, I said Honda wasn't the best. But, all things said, I still love my Buell. I just don't like people knocking Japanese bikes because their not American. Japanese bikes are awesome machines with superior quality and pricing. Everything about H-D can't be perfect. Don't let the badge blind you. Just like them because you do. | ||
| Outrider |
Apple to Oranges...Cruisers to Other-Type-Bikes. Careful with the analogies. Never said Harley was perfect. We were discussing exterior fit'n'finish of cruisers. I narrowed it to quality of exterior metals and plating with a disclaimer for a lot of HD's aftermarket stuff. In the fit department, there are so may sharp edges I feel like a "Blood Donor" every time I detail it. LOL I do agree with you that that Japanese make awesome bikes as do a few other countries. Each has some very strong models and others that are...let's say average. In essence, my comments were not "Buy American" as much as they were I have owned a lot of bikes and the external metals and plated finish on my Harley is better than anything else I have owned. Then again, it is the freakin' heaviest bike I have owned as well. I wonder if Harley prices by the pound, like steak? Final thought...I wish my Buell held its value as well as my Harley does. | ||
| 984_cc |
America does know how to lay chrome.  |
