| Author | Message | ||
     Xb1221 |
I have a retired CCS/Daytona USA race bike bought two years ago. Link at bottom. Last motor builder (unknown at this time) left a clutch retaining ring in the cam galley. Cams inhaled that causing everything merrily rotating in the galley to come to an abrupt stop. E3 and E4 lost 6 or 7 teeth each, pinion gear cracked, crank key was 1/2 tore off, filings went to the oil pump and took that out and the bronze drive gear was tweaked. Yes ouch!! Bike coasted to a stop and was trailered home. When the exhaust was removed I could see the exhaust valves were not moving when trying to start it leading to the tear down, Lots of parts and gaskets later that damage was repaired, though I still have this back firing up through the TBI and out the exhaust with any throttle input and sometimes at idle. Thinking I had bent valves the heads were removed and they are AOK. Phew... List of parts in the motor include XB9 3.1 crank, 3 13/16" Millenium jugs, possible NHRS (somebody's) domed pistons, stage 3 heads w/ 1.9 intake and 1.6 exhaust, Sledge Hammer Competition double valve springs, stock XB12 TBI with unknown injectors, race ECU mapped for Beson exhaust, Beson looking (water buffalo headpipes) stainless exhaust w/ 2--> 1 can. Engine cases are stamped RACE USE ONLY. Stock parts include XB12 cams, XB12 primary, pushrods, rocker boxes and rockers. Stock cams got trashed so used ones were bought here on the BadWeb and put back in...XB12s. Questions....and thoughts. Is there a secret way to set the cams with these big bore kits to get them aligned right? They are clocked to the service manual pic. Triple checked. Original alignment from motor builder was lost in tear down. Since everything was apart so long are there teething pains that must be done for the ECU to relearn it's task? TPS resest etc.... It's not easy keeping her running when the TBI is on fire!! The only trouble codes it's throwing is because it was apart so long and those parts were actually disconnected. 15, 23, 32 and 33. It's been apart since November last year. Should I bag it up and send it to someone that knows what to do? Part it out? I don't feel like paying my Dealer to "learn" what to do on my dime. Pics can be taken and posted if needed. I really thought I had it fixed and would be riding this year but this backfiring has me puzzled. Need to Git R Dun or the wife is going to #*&%#! me!! I know you all know what that's all about....I'm sure. Ruckus here.... http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/327 77/556784.html Thanks to all for helping. I can be available later in the week if someone has time to sort through/Recon some of this. That'd be huge. | ||
| Xb1221 |
Wow...no chatter at all on this? Had the heads at the local NAPA Main Machine shop here and I have a bent 1.6 exhaust valve. Dan at Hammer Performance is setting me up with new seals and one valve. He mentioned the cam set-up is per the Service Manual and to be sure I didn't switch the pushrods which might have made the intake bark. Different lenghts. | ||
| Kds1 |
call me tomorrow and I'll tell you where to start ...I can't type that good.. 828-381-7546 Kevin Drum www.kdfab.com | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
http://xoptiinside.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/doc s/XL_cams_in_XB.25133855.zip This is a picture version of what I made which works perfectly. this will help you along as well. Call Kevin too we have went over this quite a few times. Hi Kevin good to see you here. How did yours come out with the 536's in it? | ||
| Kds1 |
not finished yet, still working on it...will be done in a week or so I hope  Kevin Drum www.kdfab.com | ||
| Slaughter |
The short stroke/big bore 1169 motor is the best XB engine never made! (but in the early years of the XB, was quite popular among us who race these machines) I can't tell what ECM you are using. If you are running the true Buell Racing race module (fully programmable) - and if this was a race engine, it most likely does not use oxygen sensors for running. This engine can't run the stock ECM - you'd need the control given by ECMSpy or the Buell Racing ECM. When you re-assembled the motor and clayed-in the piston/valves, what clearance did you give the valve/pistons? (just afraid you MIGHT have had a piston/valve collision that might have bent a valve) Sounds like you got the cams aligned correcly if you did it per the book. (Message edited by slaughter on June 29, 2011) | ||
| Rotor |
when is your engine backfiring ? idle, high RPM, hot cold , always ? what do you tell backfiring ? is the bike driveable ? | ||
| Xb1221 |
Rotor.. Engine was backfiring at idle. Any throttle input kills the motor. She's undrivable due to throttle response killing motor. Slaughter... ECM is a race use only model set-up/programmed for the Beson pipe it was bought with. Other pipe and can looks like the Beson (water buffalo headpipe)...but is all stainless and the outlet is aimed at the rear tire. Same springs holding it all together. Could anyone ID the pipe with a pic? As you mentioned...no O2 sensors on the Beson or this "other pipe". I have the ECMSpy but haven't got it working with the Vista laptop I have right now. I have a Car Chemistry 3" 3 baffle insert in the can to calm down the db level a bit. 20 minutes with the Beson or this pipe and you need ear plugs. She's running a tad rich with the baffle installed though it fixed the off idle flat spot. Kevin... I'll call next week after the 4th Holiday weekend. Everyone relax and enjoy the time with family. NAPA Main counter found a bent exhaust valve. Dan at Hammer Performance will get me a new valve and 4 new seals next week. Dan also mentioned to double check the pushrods to be sure they didn't get swapped accidently causing the intake backfires. She's a retired race bike. Link to the BadWeb is in first post. It was bike #21 prepped by Willimas H-D in NJ and built at Rich Cronrath's shop at Innovative. Lots of 2nd and 3rds in the CCS class racing results pages. Thanks for the help....I have new skins to scrub in before it starts snowing again here..... | ||
| Rotor |
XB1221.. can you log idle with ecmspy ? | ||
| Xb1221 |
Rotor... I haven't gotten Vista and ECMSpy to play nice yet. I won't have the heads back till next weekend at the earliest anyway. Give me a day to reassemble everything and I should have her fired up Saturday or Sunday next weekend. I've read Vista needs to be run in the Admin account which I haven't tried yet. Question I have for everyone....should there be a measurable gap between the rocker and each valve stem after reassembly when that cylinder should be firing? Should I pull the pushrod boxes and see what lifters I have to answer this question? | ||
| Terrys1980 |
Disable User Account Control and you will not have any problems with Vista and ECMSpy. | ||
| Rotor |
"I've read Vista needs to be run in the Admin account " exactly. also disable sleep function when closing you laptop | ||
| Bobbuell1961 |
Question I have for everyone....should there be a measurable gap between the rocker and each valve stem after reassembly when that cylinder should be firing? NO,Unless you have solid lifters? Sounds like you have a bent valve (again?)and or the guide is broken. Hydraulic lifter will never have a gap. | ||
| Slaughter |
I do not think you can use ECM Spy at all with the real fully programmable Buell Racing module (and you won't need to use ECMSpy since you've got full control right there). Do you still have the DOS-based programming software or the later Windows? | ||
| Xb1221 |
Slaughter, My ECMSpy version is V1.12.26 05/2007 - 01/2008 shown in the Help > About. Randy's (Rega) laptop took a dump and he couldn't transfer his software to me. I guess he had the real Buell Racing software. My ECU is stamped/etched/melted in RACE USE ONLY and is stamped 496 in white paint on the black connector if that helps age things. The ECU should be circa 2003'ish because the first pic I have of the bike at the bottom of the post is 10/2003. I didn't see any part numbers on it. I'm not sure what software is compatible with what. Can you help with that? Some history on the bike.....Randy said it raced three years stateside and then spent a year in Europe. If you go to the CCSRacing.us web site and find the small search field in the upper right......key-in 21 BUE REGA the bike's race results come up. Hope this helps. | ||
| Slaughter |
I would bet that he's using the original Buell Racing DOS-based control software. ECMSpy is not compatible. If he didn't get you the controller software, see if you can get it from him. The original Kimball software was titled XB1169.PCM or something similar and was about 280~ lines of code. Assuming you're not constantly making engine changes, you'll mostly use it for TPS re-set and one of the lines is "LFUEL" - in which you'll be able to change global fuel values up or down depending on altitude and atmospheric conditions. Most folks never ran oxygen sensors because there was always a little uncertainty with the engine trying to re-learn subtle differences from a long, front straight and then re-adjusting during a heavy throttle-usage twisty section. That and many of us still use leaded race gas. PM me if he can't help you, I still have my old DOS based software SOMEWHERE on one of my old tuning laptops. It's small enough to email as an attachment but will take me a while to find it in storage. | ||
| Slaughter |
In case you are curious - IDS purchased Kimball. I BELIEVE ("ASS-U-ME") that IDS makes the engine control systems used on 1125... not sure about the 1190. They did make the windows-based ECM software for the fully programmable race controller. http://www.intelligentdesignsolutionsinc.com/news. htm | ||
| Slaughter |
Sorry - didn't read carefully enough your last post about his laptop died. You MIGHT be able to get the original Kimball software from IDS. Send IDS an email to ask. If not, I'll see if I can find my old software. You'll still need an old laptop that runs a DB9 (9-pin) RS232 serial port. The program will ONLY address COM1 or COM2 and since a few of the channels are 0-10 volts, will not support USB communication because of the 5 volt limit on USB. | ||
| Slaughter |
Stay in touch, we'll get you running. I'm THINKING you've got the original ECM and will need that software. The hardware was never compatible with ECMSpy. See if IDS can help. If not, let me know, I haven't actually "LOST" my old software, it's just that I don't know which of many boxes I put the old laptop into. | ||
| Rotor |
perhaps it's better ( just for try ) to put an IB310 ecm with originals xb12 maps. AFV locked and see if the bike runs better or not ? (Message edited by RoToR on July 07, 2011) | ||
| Slaughter |
This engine is radically different than either the XB9 or XB12. When you get her running, you're going to LOVE it. Now - if you can get an 08 flywheel set and have Darkhorse take 2 1/2 pounds out of it, modify the cases for the big bearings, it'll take 8,000 RPM all day long. | ||
| Greg_e |
By the way, the good USB to RS232 adapters have charge pumps to push the signal level up to 10 volts, the older versions would hit 12 volts like they are supposed to be. | ||
| Slaughter |
I think the problem is signal conditioning FROM RS232 TO USB - with USB's 5 volt limit. | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
Slauter is correct the old free ecmspy is not for the real race factory ecm used with the PCM IS tools. you need the MONO version or a future release of the Buell Plug-in for Tunerpro RT. its working now but we have to verify every Byte first a blue million times on a side by side burn test verify... over and over.... once this is done it will be posted to the downloads files at Tunerpro.net for the new plug-in... free Note this will do the B2rib and the B3rib and ect until they change the entire program based on the Com port protocol. even then its easy to read it with a comport sniffer on the new link. must go can bus to change that... then you need a K-line or 4191 cable 6 wire.. another simple one to duplicate... once read it takes a very few mins to make the new file base to read and write. | ||
| Xb1221 |
Finally.... A graduation, a vacation and waiting on UPS to find the right store later and the heads will be in hand thursday!! I'll be wrenching friday (4 day 10 hour work week). No one mentioned if I should be able to tell if there is noticable play in the pushrods at TDC for each cylinder. Anyway...Kevin, you offered to call you when I was ready to get it together right. I'll be doing that Friday morning. Anyone else want to chime in I'll keep this post updating during the day to see anything. I'll have the whole top end to put back together with the stage 3 heads (1.9"in/1.6"out), stock cams, rods, rod boxes, head gaskets, rocker boxes...etc. One exhaust valve was bad plus all seals were replaced. Can I let the piston lift a jug and see if I have a non-stock connecting rod then add some slop to reseal it? Right now they are held down with a short slice of plastic elec conduit with a head stud. Replacements came in the head gasket kit, but I'm trying to avoid the whole ring compressor dance. thanks- | ||
| Firemanjim |
Save yourself the trouble,very few XBs ever got non stock rods--heck,not sure anyone made any.Tubers could get S&S units. | ||
| Xb1221 |
It's all back together again. Still getting the backfire up through the TBI. Runs at 1/2 throttle...er rather sputters at half throttle. Kevin mentioned sourcing a stock XB12 ECU around my year and doing a TPS reset to eliminate that variable. Anyone have a loaner or one for sale? I have an '04 XB12S that was morphed into the linked race bike. I'm off to the classifieds section next. | ||
| Rotor |
i also have a 1170 on my XB9r. also have some sputters or cuts at around 2000 to 2500 rpm with low tps values but my bike is like a stock XB12 about injectors,TB, exhaust and ecm. I've tryied to change something on spark advance and fuel timings with ecmspy but no good results. | ||
| Xb1221 |
Rotor, Before the engine found the bearing retaining ring left in the cam galley (not my engine build) 10 months ago...she ran fine. Off idle flat spot is all the trouble I had. Wring her neck a little more at traffic lights and stop signs. 48 mpg and a light front wheel during most accelerations. Map for the Beson on the race ECM was good...though a tad rich for commuting. Shoved a 3" 3 Baffle CC Insert in the straight S/S can in the second exhaust and that helped that a lot. It also kept the neighbors from greeting me with pitchforks, torches and sickles for the morning commute. I'm hearing great things from Kevin Drum about his map and exhaust. I'm making 92 rear wheel and Kevin thinks he can get me at least 10 more with his map, his can and a stock XB12 headpipe. Hummm...this has me saving my morning java gingle for that buy. I also have a stock 12 TBI, injectors and cams. K & N, race exhaust (Beson look-a-like in stainless), race ECM, stage 3 heads, 12 primary gearing, 21 x 50 520 chainrings. Right now I'm waiting on a slot at the dealer to reset the TPS for me. Two Andrew Jacksons will get that done. Then we'll be riding or...spending more money. Once I get this running again and I can read the maps we can compare differences. Mine is really pretty darn close, but then this is the only Buell I've sat on so far. thanks-- | ||
| Xb1221 |
 I'm 'bout ready to push her to the curb and set it on fire!!! These DDFI-2 ECUs have 3 versions. One is a factory ECU sold with the VIN #'d bike with a factory map. A second was a RACE/Programmable version that was sold with a performance map. These two are compatible with the dealer software and the TPS can be reset. A third version...wait for it (incompatible with the dealer software) was sold through Erik Buell Racing and is only compatible with their software and serial port interface. This way it was only self supporting and kept to closed course racing. Guess which version I have.....I have to call my dealer back and tell them there is a good reason you can't chat with my ECU. Now starts the thought process. Do I spend the $$ for the Erik Buell Racing or look for a stock ECU I can play with. What would you do if you were in my shoes? 1. Sell the ECU and "Beson looking" stainless steel exhaust to the racing community and swap for there stock parts. Eventually getting a Drummer for it. 2. BUY the Erik Buell Racing software. thanks- |
