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Buell Forum » XBoard » Archive through August 16, 2011 » ECM change, TPS reset, now idling off. « Previous Next »

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Goodandybadpizza
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 07:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I bought the Erik Buell Racing ECM for my bike (2006 xb12) and set up (Drummer ss, K+N air filter, open airbox) a few months ago, but did not get around to installing it today because the included instructions say bikes from 03-07 need to have the tps reset by a dealer after installation. My dealer is close enough but out of my way really.
So I put the race ecm in, started the bike and rode it in. On the way there is appeared and felt as though it was running fine.
An hour and a half and 90 bucks later, they tell me it is ready to go, but that it is idling high and low. Which it did not do before! He said I could leave it there, but I rode in and have no way to get home so I had to ride it.
At the first red light I hit I notice what he said. It'll build up to 1500 rpm and then drop back down to ~1000 repeatedly. So I start riding, keeping it at around 3500 rpm. The next light is green but I have to turn right so I start slowing down and now the engine will not go below 3000 rpm even with no throttle. The next part of the ride is at 65 mph and I would occasionally pull the clutch to see if the rpms would go down, but they would not go below around 2500-3000.
I hit a few red lights in town and the same thing, rpms in neutral with no throttle would not go below 2500. It seemed to be staying right at 2500 in fact.
I make it home and shut it off (key) and turn back on and same thing. Idling at 2500rpm. So I let it sit a few minutes and then go back and start it up. Now idling at 500rpm and died repeatedly without throttle. I applied throttle to keep it at 1000 or so, and then after a bit of that it stayed running but at around 700 rpm. Then after it warmed up it ran at 1000 for a bit and then started going up to 1500 and dropping back down to 1000. Shut it off.
I put in the original ecm and it started up and ran right at 1000 rpm for a bit. Then suddenly and rapidly increased to 2500 where it stayed before I shut it off again. I also noticed a stream of hot fuel vapor coming out of the breather hose, along with enough drops of fuel to make maybe a 1.5 in mark on the ground under it. Now it has been probably ten minutes or more since the bike was running and I still see a stream of fuel vapor leaving the hose. I should mention this part is stock, I have not done a breather reroute. I should also mention this could be normal but I have never noticed it before.
Thank you for reading this far, now any suggestions? I am irked because it is my only transportation, and it was running fine on the way in even with a different ecm, and it has been running fine since I got it.
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Froggy
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 07:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

They either botched the TPS reset or set your idle too high. Turn down the idle a tick and see if it helps.
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Terrys1980
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 07:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Usually a hanging or surging idle is caused by it being set a tad to high. Its possible you fouled the spark plugs with the repeated starting and stopping.
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Xoptimizedrsx
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 09:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm with Froggy and Terry on this .

if they reset the tps correctly but didnt ride it afterwards to fine tune it to the bike. Well, they biotched it in by using only the book values.

what I do is reset it to the book. Then take it out for a ride to relearn the afv with the new settings. then back the tps up to 1000 rpm and not worry about degree.

If its set to zero it is correct. Then once it learns the new air flow as stated just back out the tps till its 1000 rpm and your going to be fine. what you described is a classic dealership reset only doing 1/2 the job.

There is no way to mess up a rest with aftermarket tools. Its a command sent to the ecm as a 0X02 code then the ecm itself does the work not the program. Impossible for it to mess up the ecm or be seen.

The ecms that are bad from aftermarket tools are enduser mistakes IMO, not the program used. especially on the tps reset.
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Blaylock1988
Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 07:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I remember hearing similar symptoms from another member that did his own TPS reset but did it incorrectly. I think they screwed up doing your TPS reset (which is sad because it is pretty easy).

(Message edited by Blaylock1988 on June 29, 2011)
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Goodandybadpizza
Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2011 - 01:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Update: I did replace the plugs today as part of the 10k service. The rear plug was loose! Thought that would solve the problem. So I start it back up and it is idling inconsistently again, but in a more reasonable range- maybe 800-1200rpm back and forth. I did play with the idle adjustment at this point but raising or lowering it slightly, while changing the range, didn't stop the high/low idle.
I decided to take it for a ride. I notice the rpms seem to have trouble going back down to idle. Seems to run fine at highway speeds and rpms(65mph, 4krpm). I stop and turn around and again it is idling at 2500 rpm at red lights. I start back home and notice the check engine light has come on at around 7 miles of riding. Once I got off the highway I would pull the clutch and the rpms would slowly go down to about 2500. However in my driveway it was bouncing around 1000 as I said. The only way I could get the rpms to drop below 2500 was to use the brakes while keeping it in gear to slow the engine down. When I did this, the rpms would stay at the level I slowed the engine down to until I brought it above 2500, when it would again only drop to 2500.
I pulled into my driveway and it was at about 1500 due to me braking to make the turn in. The bike also feels as though it is running incredibly hot. I noticed this yesterday on my way home but I thought it might have something to do with the temperature outside. Now it has to be in the low 70's. Still visible gas vapor coming out of the tank blow off.
Thoughts?
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2011 - 07:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That little rubber cap pop off of the intake?
Sounds like it's a vacuum leak to me.
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Noone1569
Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2011 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

These are the same symptoms I experienced after installing my Erik Buell Racing Race ECM and resetting my TPS with ECMSpy.

I removed the Erik Buell Racing ECM and replaced it with a old Buell ECM, reset TPS, and bike runs fine.

So, I e-mailed Erik Buell Racing regarding the issue and received the below response:

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Tech <tech@ebracing.com> wrote:
NEVER use ECM Spy with our ECM's. We have had huge issues with this software modifying incorrect addresses in the ECM. We have different firmware in our ECM from the old Buell ECM.

Other users have stated they've reset the TPS with ECMspy without issue with the Erik Buell Racing Ecm. I'm not sure. I sent mine back off to Erik Buell Racing today to get reprogrammed, and I'll be taking it to the dealer for a reset as soon as it comes back.

(Message edited by noone1569 on June 30, 2011)
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Froggy
Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2011 - 12:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

He had his TPS reset done by the dealer.
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Greg_e
Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2011 - 03:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If the E_B_R ECM uses a different location for that variable, then it is very likely that the dealer is going to mess it up too. I would ask E_B_R what software can be used to reset TPS and check ignition timing, etc.

It also may be that some users are using the newest for "pay" version of ECM spy and that might be why they are working.
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Goodandybadpizza
Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I took it to a Harley dealer, so I would assume they used Digital Technician as specified in the service manual.
Is the general feeling that the tps reset was done incorrectly? Any suggestions on how to bring this up with them? I know I screw up occasionally at work, but I definitely wouldn't like someone coming in and pointing fingers and so on.
I pulled my Blast out today. Haven't ran it in a year or so and it started right up. It's going to feel strange riding that bike!
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Terrys1980
Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 03:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What I gathered is that there is a good chance that the software HD used corrupted the Erik Buell Racing ecm. So if they do another TPS reset and it still acts up contact Erik Buell Racing to see about sending the ecm in to get reprogrammed.
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Greg_e
Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The dealer may have used what is in the service manual, but you have a non Harley ECM so all bets are off based on the post above saying it uses different programming.
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Firemanjim
Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Resetting TPS is the same no matter the ECM and just doing a reset does not reprogram an ecm at all. Dealer just did poor job as shown by your hanging idle.
ECM-Spy is just a tool used to reset it at this point.
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Greg_e
Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 05:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just commenting on the email received by Noone1569 that said to never use ECMspy on the E_B_R ECMs.
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Goodandybadpizza
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2011 - 12:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I emailed Erik Buell Racing about it, and they said they think three things are happening. 1. The reset was not done correctly by the dealer. 2. They may have reflashed the bike as well, corrupting the ecm. 3. The ecm is for a drummer exhaust, not a drummer ss.
I have mailed the race ecm and my stock ecm back to them. They can take the tps position off of the stock ecm and program that into the race ecm so I won't have to go back to the dealer.
They did reiterate to never used ecmspy...
"ECM Spy has caused us untold nightmares, as it does not recognize the different firmware in the race ECM, and blindly makes changes to incorrect data addresses. Please do not use it, as in some cases the ECM's become rendered completely inoperative, and they must be sent back to us for a fresh program. That is how we found that this program can do crazy things."
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Greg_e
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2011 - 03:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Should probably ask them to take a look at TunerPro RT and maybe provide a little info so that we can use that software to handle some of these routine tasks.
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Chainsaw
Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 07:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My 2:

Take it back to the dealer and have them do it 'by-the-book'.

The dealer is supposed to set the idle after the engine has reached a specific temperature. They may not have waited.

A friend of mine with an XB9S had the same symptoms after the dealer set his.

I Re-zeroed his TPS using the VDSTS software and cable from Technoresearch, and it has me wait till the engine hits 320 degrees before setting the idle. This can take a good 5 minutes or so to hit the proper temperature, (the data on the screen will show the current engine temp, so no guessing involved). Problem solved.


If you've wondering: I've had the VDSTS stuff since 2002-2003 or so. Predates ECM Spy, and cost somewhere between $200-$300 at the time.
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Teeps
Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2011 - 11:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've used VDSTS and ECM Spy to rest TPS on my '06 XB12X with no problems.
Here's my the procedure I use:
1. Engine AT operating temperature. (best done after returning for 30 minute or longer ride.
2. With the idle stop screw backed out; snap the throttle a few times. (observe the TPS voltage. When TPS voltage no longer changes; the throttle blade is as closed as it's going to get.
3. Do the TPS reset. (follow any on screen instructions.) This tells the ECM to consider the current TPS voltage as ZERO (even if it's not indicated as such.)
4. Immediately adjust the idle speed to 1000 RPM +500/-0 (again snap the throttle a few times to seat the idle stop adjustment.)
5. Button it up and ride.
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Xoptimizedrsx
Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 12:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

hats right the old ecmspy is not working on the new ecms. but Tunerp[ro does as well as ecmspy for mono...

all the firmwares are verified accurate in the new stuff with the new Programs...
see this page in the lower section the Protocals are not different...
http://www.ecmspy.com/eeprom_info.shtml
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Xoptimizedrsx
Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 12:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

good and bad pizza..
I see the same issue with ecmspy doing crazy things... But its not the program its the User trying to burn something he should not be doing if he is not sure. same with tunerpro. if you cross firmwares and burn to the bike. a wrong file. you just wrecked the ecm...

That is not a program error that is a user error. Never burn a firmware you randomly get for a bike even if it says it is the correct firm ware. test it first... it may be mis labeled and cause you a mess.

This is the biggest Issue and getting worse by the day. one bad file getting shared over and over.

Firmware must match exactly or it will not work...}}
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Xoptimizedrsx
Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 12:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Greg
Tuner pro can do these task on the TPS but I didnt include those bytes of data in my adx and ZGunter didnt do it in his either.

Its a send commands function
Byte # Meaning Values (typical) Remarks
1 SOH 0x01 Start of Header
2 Emittend 0x00 From PC
3 Recipient 0x42 To ECM
4 Data Size 0x05 5 Bytes
5 EOH 0xFF End of Header
6 SOT 0x02 Start of Text
7 Data 1 0x57 Command
8 Data 2 0x00 Page Offset
9 Data 3 0x20 Virtual Page No.
10 Data 4

0x01 = Clear Codes
0x02 = Front Coil
0x03 = Rear Coil
0x04 = Tachometer
0x05 = Fuel Pump
0x06 = Front Inj.
0x07 = Rear Inj.
0x08 = TPS Reset
0x09 = Fan
0x0a = Exh. Valve

Data Byte
(Device Selector or Reset Code)
11 Data 5 (EOT) 0x03 End of Text
12 Checksum 0xCF XORed Checksum

that one... Byte 10 tells it what to do and after that the ecm does the work from its own workings. not the program. it burns noting on these commands. TPS rest doe not burn a single value Impossible to mess that up with a program unless you first burned a wrong firmware type to your ecm making it mis-match...
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Goodandybadpizza
Posted on Friday, July 29, 2011 - 02:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As an update to this...
I got my ecms back today. They were able to take the tps position off of the stock ecm and program it into the race ecm. I plugged it in and it fired right up and promptly died. Repeated starting attempts brought the same result. It'll run for a second and then die. Even if I apply some gas it'll die. So I plugged in the stock ecm and got the same behavior.
Any suggestions? Unfortunately it seems like I couldn't even take it in at this point since it won't stay running. I have now been over a frustrating month without the bike.
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Xoptimizedrsx
Posted on Friday, July 29, 2011 - 07:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

did you ride it to let the AFV learn yet? if not it is a must do...
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Greg_e
Posted on Friday, July 29, 2011 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Check all the wires in the ECM connectors and make sure they are snapped into the connector shell. It really sounds like maybe the keep alive +12 is missing or intermittent and that maybe it slipped out of the lock in the connector.
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Dhays1775
Posted on Friday, July 29, 2011 - 11:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

even if the ecm is reading a certain %, the throttle plate might be too far closed to allow the engine to tick over. try to open the idle screw a little at a time to get it to idle, even if a little high. if you can get the bike to fire up but die, get all dressed and get on the bike. fire it up and take off to get the motor up to temp. after it's warm enough, open the idle adjust screw to get the idle where you want it. shut the bike down and wait a little while. then fire it up and see where the idle is. that is what i would do.
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Goodandybadpizza
Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 02:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I checked all the connections and they appear to be in place. I did manage to get it to run today for about 15 min in my garage. I actually turned the idle down and it ran at 7-800 rpm. When I applied throttle the rpm would drop and sometimes it would die, but most of the time it would rev. So I turned the idle speed adjustment up and the engine speed would actually go down! The same thing would happen when I would turn the idle speed down.
Though it was running(at idle), this did not instill enough confidence in me to try to ride it to work today. Maybe there is something wrong with the idle controller? If there is such a thing. Everything in the service manual just refers you to how to adjust the idle speed.
The performance of the engine with throttle still seemed a little shaky. Even with a constant amount of throttle applied the engine speed seemed to jump around a bit (dropping 500 rpm or so).
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Xtreme
Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ok, when I replaced my ECM with an Erik Buell Racing ECM for a Drummer SS and K&N filter, I talked to Kevin at KD fab First. Here are the steps he told me to follow.

Disconnect battery.
install race ECM.
Reconnect battery.
Do TPS reset as per the instructions that came from Erik Buell Racing
When you start it do not touch throttle.
If stalls restart (with no throttle)
Let idle for at least 10 minutes.
do not rev engine, hop on put into gear and run 3000 to 3700 RPM thru all the gears, up and down
DO NOT RUN OVER 4000 RPM.
Do this for at least 40 minutes. During this time it may stall at stops, restart with no throttle.
It will take a few hundred miles for your computer to calibrate fully.
Believe me you think there is issues at first but just follow these guidelines and before you know it your bike will be a badass machine.
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Terrys1980
Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 04:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

Maybe there is something wrong with the idle controller?




http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?142838/634269
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Goodandybadpizza
Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2012 - 09:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

to give this forum a conclusion:
over the winter my wife got a laptop, so i downloaded ecm spy and tuner pro. got the cable from xopti today and took out the race ecm. put the stock ecm back in and reset tps. runs fine! yes, there is not as much power maybe, but at least it is running well and without giving me any error codes.
before i changed the ecm i checked the race for error codes and it came back saying there was a short on the fan connector pin. i guess that is why it wasn't coming on at all. funny how i found that in about 20 seconds and the dealer seemingly didn't find it at all.
I guess i will return if possible/sell/or just keep the race ecm and stick with the stock and tune it. glad i have this finally worked out!
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