|Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 10:28 pm: ||
The laws are, you cannot make a map on a different engine and different altitude; as well as different weather and different fuel quality and be correct. ((Broken down) the laws are fixed unless you go atomic.)
How is it possible to be done correctly on a Buell if no other engine can be done this way?
Cause it cannot be done "IMO" or is there a rule of physics that does not apply to certain people/shops. They may get it closer and even then, it is a 50/50 chances its better or worse. To match it right it must be matched on the intended bike where it is intended to be ridden I would say.
Invest in a couple Lc's1 wide bands and gauges. Then get one of these pre-made maps. Make sure you question them how they intend to match it to your bike, and your area. Then tell then why you know it is off. By installing the two 500 plus dollars worth of gauges you will see the fuel is off all over with these test. That is because it has been matched to a different bike not yours and different parameters. A Buell’s ecu is not complex enough to manage it like most Automotive ecu's or stand-alone ecu's. They cannot maintain the correct fueling do to missing complex metering gauges.
These were my findings multiple times on my own bikes hauled around the South East over different times of the year. Another Bike was tested around the U.S. by another rider to log how the mapping was doing. My bikes were never correct until data logged and adjusted to my bike with me on it according to the dual Gauges, even though the map mad was on an exact bike but across the US from me. The other one that was ridden around the U.S. ran great at times then crazy at others. Then great again when back to the matching area the map was made. Altitude, fuel type and weather were the most effecting issues.
Bike or any engine actually>>>
What are others input on making maps with different fuel type/quality, different bikes/engines, different altitudes and weather? Then using these maps in total different bikes/engines in different environments? What did you find and how did it work for you?
|Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 02:00 pm: ||
Mike , I think you are very correct , there are many variables from bike to bike . But unfortunately some of us have to take what we can get due to a shortage of $$ . I have not been able to afford the meters to do it correctly , so its hit and miss . I have tried many different maps , and some are good in areas and some not so good . And I think most of them came from across the country , and I live in the Central Valley in CA. So you can imagine the altitude and other differences . I use my butt dyno , and read the plugs , and exhaust , as much as I can , but I know it is not perfect by any means .
My goal is to get the wideband sensors and meters eventually .
Ironically , some of the worst maps I have found have come from the HD dealers . My friends XB12 he purchased had one of the worst "factory maps" I have ever ridden .
Bottom line is , alot of us have to make do with what we can get till we can do better .
|Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 02:06 pm: ||
I wish there was a stand alone ECU you could install without re-wiring the entire bike , and breaking the bank .
|Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 03:19 pm: ||
There ARE stand-alone ECU's available - but you can't just throw on whatever aftermarket engine stuff you want and then not expect to do $500 worth of tuning.
Go to Erik Buell Racing and check out which combinations they HAVE tuned for - and buy THAT stuff.
Otherwise, welcome to the science project.
|Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 03:31 pm: ||
Hey Mike -
People don't listen..
I've been saying this...seems for ever...!
I don't know what the problem is, but many/most do NOT seem to understand the way an engine works.
Simple as that.
|Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 04:02 pm: ||
Maybe it's the delivery, and not the information
|Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 05:35 pm: ||
I have made a living most of my life working with one or another branch of thermodynamics...my problem is not with the engine or understanding how it works..in fact I am fairly well versed mechanically....it's the electronics that get me...
My problem starts when I view a graphical representation of what is happening...I can't seen to figure out where to "take the first bite" to begin to digest it all. All the tuning info I have run across assumes the person is a master at computer usage and programming. I have no idea what a .xdf or xyz is or the convoluted steps needed to navigate the system...searching for help does little good since "help" assumes one has a degree in computer science....
|Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 06:53 pm: ||
I think it is important to look at what the tuning goals of the people who create a particular map are. If the same map isn't right for each and every bike, then how can a company mass produce thousands of motorcycles, each with the same map, and expect to create any kind of a good reputation?
There are always uncontrollable variables that contribute to how well the dynamic system works, like fuel, barometric pressure, air temp, and humidity, but an engine management system is engineered with certain abilities to compensate for those changes. Buell's "Alpha N" system has its limitations, but it is more than capable of managing the fuel and spark delivery to two cylinders.
Volumetric efficiency is something that remains very constant for a particular engine design. It indicates the engine's ability to pump air and includes the entire system from the entrance of the air into the intake system to the moment the air exits the exhaust tip. The Alpha-N system relies on the VE of the engine to deliver proper fueling and spark, and if something is done to change the VE, then the "runability" of the engine will change.
The manufacturing tolerances and assembly processes of a Buell engine are tight enough to keep the VE of each engine very close, and so a single map can be used for each new Buell off the production line.
An issue with using additional sensors like speed-density and/or mass air to control the engine is that the camshafts' lifts and durations make it difficult to control low rpm and light throttle conditions.
With all of the mechanical and electronic issues that exist, I still think the fundamental issue behind a "good" or "bad" map is the creator's understanding of how the engine should run given the data they chose to analyze. It is not fair to compare "maps" or "runability" unless you understand the tuning methods and purpose of each map.
|Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 09:25 pm: ||
When my 07XB9R was completely stock it ran perfect . The trouble was it was a real DOG and sounded like a scooter . I didn't care for that . Go figure .
P.S. IMO Its not that most of us don't understand the way the ECM and different bike variables work , its maybe we don't have the tools available ($300 dyno sessions) in this Shite "Owe-bamas" Economy to do it 100% correct .
I understand when I "try" a different map , or pay Mike $100 dollars (like I did two years ago) to make a map for me , through my data logging , it may not be perfect and will have to be tweaked .
I have been scewing around with this and ECMspy for three years . I have the best running map so far . Is it Perfect ? Probably not , but as far as I can tell , it pulls hard and is not running lean . I read my plugs and exhaust , witch seems to be a lost art or Voodoo to most people .
Oh by the way Mike , I'm not disrespecting you , you have always been a great help to me and I thank you . I think you are a genius .
(Message edited by kdogshirow on January 31, 2011)
|Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 09:27 pm: ||
+ 1 Glitch
|Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 09:02 am: ||
Being that the XB ECU is always seeking 14.7:1 air/fuel ration, when in closed loop operation. How much can be expected when changing the values in the individual cells. Since the ECU is always trying to maintain a 14.7:1 ratio...
|Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 05:53 pm: ||
How many times can a few people relate the same information in different ways and still not heard or better..understood...??
Too many don't have a good feeling for what it takes to make an engine run..."correctly", and be happy with the mapping it has.
Running...going from the proverbial "A to B"..sure.
But running correctly...?
Driveability is a word that doesn't seem to be used in the Buell language of ECM mapping.
Like the "flash"..! That is the act of changing the "maps". NOT the maps themselves.
I was told the other day by someone who "should" know better...
I mentioned I was having a hard time getting my 1125 running good around the 3000rpm range.
He told me the 1125 engine doesn't run well below 3000rpm...!
Ha..BS I say. I can cruise thru my local city's 25mph speed limit now at 2500 to 3500rpm without neary a hickup.
Just took some perseverance and experimentation on my part in getting fuel cells correctly valued...!
Now...back to bettering the 7000rpm and area.
It'll do clutchless wheelies around that area...but it CAN be made better.
A full throttle dyno run means ZIP driving on the street.
|Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 11:40 am: ||
14.7 is the search fuel value. but what we are dealing with is an ecu that learns over time. so if cell a is 14.3 and you ride there over time it will adjust the afv to the values needed to get 14.7. but if cell b was 14.7 well not it is off and over time if ridden their it will adjust back to 14.7. guess what now cell a is off again.
how many cells do you have. if they are off all over the poor ecu is working to hard. smoothing that out makes for a happy bike.
note this is ref to 14.7 area CL only.
we are allotted acceleration fuel and ect for more or less fuel in a given time when the O2 reading is not effecting the AFV learned. Those areas are not 14.7.
Tune it how you ride it. "ride-ablity is the key"
OEM spec settings in some cases are just not working well overall I feel the oem test needs to be done in four locations of different altitude and weather simulations. This would resolve issues and find a middle area that works well overall. Would it be spot on per bike, no. However, it would be in the window more often than it is currently.
The OEM spec is a window, only when out of the broad window is it flagged and repaired. Some run 100% some dont.
A bike can have issues but due to the standards in industry you have to live with it till its broke for them to fix it or fix it yourself with a few tools and some time to learn what and how to fix the issue.
Keep more post coming, as we are all learning always. as a group we can all cross educate to not only help our self but others as well.
Data log. Thats the key. Knowing what it is doing when and where...