| Author | Message | ||
     Rsh |
In it's day, the 1340cc Hals race bikes, and later on the 1340cc XBRR's had a hard time battling 600cc race bikes in the Formula Extreme class. The torque advantage of the big bore race XB's was not very apparent or was canceled out by the much higher revving 600cc bikes at the time. The 1125 in streetbike form, with it's modern technology nearly puts out the same performance as a factory built Formula Extreme spec XBRR, and with little work far surpasses it. You can only get so much out of the Harley V-Twin. The only way to do it is by adding huge displacement, building a grenade, or some combination, then reliability issues come into play. Buell did an excellent job hot rodding the XB motors. It takes some cash and careful tunning to add any real significant performance to the XB motor, and that is what you are doing. Obviously you are having a great learning experience, It's fun trying, and many other Buellers can benefit. I just do not see a big bore XB running with your 1198 Duc or Dris tuned 1125. Hope it cools off so we can see the results. | ||
| F1fletch |
Just the fact that you can get close with an air cooled motor with carefully chosen components and tuning is way cooler than a water cooled modern motor that easily makes the same hp. Modern thinking and application of the high end tech applied to old school mill but modern chassis makes me drool. I had two 1098's at separate times and they were very cool bikes but my Buell is so much more unique, will be lighter in the end, handle better and have more torque than my 1098S had. That is enough for me...:-) HP is a prince but TQ is KING | ||
| Strato9r |
..."Buell did an excellent job hot rodding the XB motors." They certainly did, with amazing reliability, as well. I'm enjoying this thread a lot, it's cool to see you guys are doing with the XB platform. I see that you are doing the build ups on the long stroke motors, and using a very similar approach as you would if building a big-block automotive engine with a lot of stroke. Using a lot of camshaft, and really high volume intake and exhaust passages are the best way to fill a big hole that opens to a depth matching or exceeding it's diameter. I'm assuming that the 88 inch combo that you are working with is using a 3.812" bore with the standard 12's stroke of 3.812", making it a "square" combination. There are both mechanical, and thermal benefits to such a combination, not to mention the fact that the engine doesn't have to be twisted to make power. That being said, have you guys done anything with a short stroke (3.125") version of your combo?" A big bore 9 could safely make extra RPM with it's shorter stroke, and the XB valvetrain can work well beyond the factory redline......... | ||
| Rsh |
Yes, the Buell's are unique, they are not on every street corner like some bikes. They offer a different kind of performance, namely handling (if set up correctly) that few bikes can match. The archaic motor forces you to take advantage of the handling, higher corner speeds help with the quest of keeping up or surpassing your buddy on his 600cc race replica. If you have any rider skill you can surprise the liter bike squids. When the XB12 you bought is signing off in the power department, your past 1098 was really starting to take off. You will be left wanting more. The cost to get an XB to put out the kind of power that Jake318 talks about was very costly a couple of years back. He say's the cost are affordable now, He has not posted any cost yet, except for some pieces here and there. You can go to any of the manufacturers he has mentioned and get an idea of the parts cost, but some of the things he is doing involve labor that requires at least a machine shop and possibly an engine builder/tuner and that is not cheap. The XBRR was designed and built using the best Erik and company could afford, or in HD's case allowed him to spend. It was a handful to get tuned properly, and just as difficult to find a competent tuner. The results, if it stayed together, were mediocre in AMA racing, and better at club level. Jake318 is touting XBRR performance with basically store bought parts, and his bike is supposed to be streetable, that is a very tall order, and hard to believe that he can do all that with store bought parts, what went wrong with the XBRR. I am really interested in his results, also the final cost, I applaud his effort. | ||
| F1fletch |
I don't mind losing the race after 120... high speeds are for the reckless or racers on a track. For me the task is simpler because my goals are lower, I don't expect 130 whp nor do I want the expense. Here is what I would like to do. 1250 Big Bore Kit (NR) Balance Crank Better Rods Stage Two Heads Ported Throttle Body Matched Fuel Injectors Better Oil Cooler Ceramic Coated Header Race Exhaust (if I can find one...lol) Custom ECM Tune This should net over 100hp at the wheel with high 90s in tq. Lets call it an XB12Rs...hehe Oh and a 30+ lb weight loss plan for the bike and 20lbs for me..lol | ||
| Rsh |
With an XB12 you can achieve 100rwhp fairly easy. The factory race kit would get you there, if you can find one, it will show you 100rwhp, depending on the dyno used. If you look at the XB exhaust shootout data at American Sportbike, results are listed for both XB9 and XB12 models. You will see which exhausts produced the the most power, best torque, with and without using the flattest A/F curve. The bikes used for the testing had a free breathing intake, catch can and tuned using Direct Link for each exhaust combo. Its good reading. A descent fuel map, a carefully chosen good after market exhaust, free breathing intake setup and using a catch can will also net 100rwhp depending on the dyno. Check it out. | ||
| F1fletch |
I did read that and was being conservative on my estimate  110 at the rear wheel should be doable. I really want a race pipe as it makes the most power low and high with a slight dip in the middle. You cannot find them anymore and when you do they are dented for $600 bucks...anyway rant over. For me for now the bike has a Jardine on it and it may stay that way until Erik Buell Racing gets the new race pipe out..........Cmon Eric/Mike Get er done...lol Back on topic my point was you can get 110-115 pretty reliable without a TON of money and if you can lighten up the bike 20-30 lbs you WILL have a stinkin fast bike that is unique, as light as any 600 out there with twice the torque of a 600 and more than even the current liter bikes. Something old, something new......  | ||
| Jake318 |
Hello all sorry for delays. Normally i love hot weather but it makes it hard to tune (moisture doesnt help either lol) We have Dyno sheets for the XB12R Firebolt with 88ci kit. My Ducati 1198(stock) and a 2001 Buell Cyclone which Andy did head work,cams done and I THINK? he raised compression to 12:1 . The Ducati and Cyclone where done on beautiful 75 degree days with the Ducati pulling 144hp and 70lbs torque? , the Cyclone putting out 102 hp 98 . the XB12R Firebolt with 1420cc ended up doing 134hp 115/ torque (forgot to ask lol) Yes its 100 + degrees and theres probably a couple more on a cool day but thats not really relavant at this point . 134HP and 115 torque will give you PLENTY of bottom end acceleration off the corners .. I will post the dyno sheets up with picturs of the bikes,the forced air oil cooler and the head temperature gauges . AS YOU ALL KNOW MY COmPUTER SKILLS ARE AS LACKING AS MY PATCIANCE. So dont be suprised if I send pics/dyno sheets to someone else to post. The reason I posted this at all was because I dont want other buellers to get screwed as i did going through harley dealers who didnt know there ass from there elbow but claimed to be... PROFFESIONAL race mechanics. They didnt even know the compression was low at 9:1 because the company I bought the 1420cc(88ci) kit fouled up the head work.( ANDY did headwork and the B-2 heads produce more power than stage 3 anyway) ANYHOW I wanted to show you all what an 88ci=1420cc kit was SUPPOSED to do if done correctly . the price sheet on this project will follow . | ||
| Jake318 |
RSH just to let you know the XBRR project was more a prelude to show the public that Buell was going racing than an all out effort to win . The 1125R was in the wings and the real hope of Buell racing making a winning combination. The XBRR being an over square engine designed to make power at high RPM cant be compared to a undersquare engine designed to make power at low RPM for drive off the corners . TWO different animals . RSH I HOPE YOU DO NOT THINK IM ANGRY AT YOU OR THINK YOU ARE NOT AN INTELLEGENT INDIVIDUAL .. THIS IS JUST INFO I PICKED UP FROM Erik Buell Racing WITH THIS PROJECT AND MORESO THE RACE BIKE PROJECT.They have been helping out and ANDY knows every legendary tuner since they invented the motorized bicycle lol. That abd he has done tons of experimental work for S&S, Vance&hines ect ect NEXT project price | ||
| Jake318 |
PROJECT PRICE : You can Buy the 90CI kit with the stage 3 heads 4300$ from revolution performance . BUT live and learn : I should have bought just the Cylinders pistons gasket kit for 1000$. Then let Andy do the heads and get the better bigger valves. Also this allows you to get different cams that gave us more power kit 610 we went with 643.. All and all your looking at aroung 6k to 7k for a worked 1420/1470 (88ci/90ci) firebolt. I am DEFINATLY biased but the accelration rush of that 120 to 140 hp engine pulling a 370( carbon fiber body ect ect) bike off a corner comming in at 2500/3000 rpm is phenominal. BTW I have a friend/ aquaintance who has a 1420cc worked firebolt and a Ducati 1098 s his 1420cc worked firebolt rips away from my 1198 Ducati off the corners and about 1/8 mile strait away at least . YES I can pass the Firebolt on the top end , but that takes awhile. Its a shame Erik couldnt build this bike for the public . With Best in class handling AND fastest in class bottom end acceleration. Even the CYCLE WORLD drones would have smiles on their faces . But as we all know GREE PEACE would have been shooting us off our bikes with harpoons instead of whaleing ships in the pacific lol. (Message edited by jake318 on July 17, 2010) | ||
| Jake318 |
OH FORGOT TO TELL YOU GUYS!!! The Harley form above function thinking strikes again ... To speed the project up a bit we took the shroud for the Forced air oil cooler and had guy that does custom Harley metal and fiberglass fabricating to take the rough model and make it a smooth one piece unit . All we wanted was to take the outside scoop which was screwed on for testing and connect it by fiber glassing the outside scoop instead of screws holding it on . WELL without asking he takes liberty in cutting and ROUNDING the outside scoop because HE thought it looked ...COOL .. unfortunatly now the air wont flow into the unit correctly. The air now would flow around the inside scoop and pass by the outside , rendering the unit pretty much useless . SO we have to wait until monday/tuesday till hes done making a outer shell . Hopefully he didnt ruin the original unit | ||
| Rsh |
I know the big bore kit prices from Revolution Performance and NRHS. Unfortunately, most of the people on this board or anywhere else for that matter would be hard pressed to spend essentially upwards of $5000 dollars to upgrade the motor in an XB, bad economy or not, very few will oblige. Revolution Performance, NRHS, Halspa and S&S have done great things for Harley based engines and will continue as long as there is a market. I believe most of the upgrades are sold to the cruiser market as those bikes need more power to move all that chrome around. As I have said before, the XB motor is hot rodded from the factory, it is very close to it's limit as is. To get big numbers out of it borders on being cost prohibitive, and after that "what broke this week" becomes a familiar question. It turns into a vicious cycle. It's probably more than a good guess that the XBRR was the prelude for the 1125R. Waiting to see pic's, dyno plots and price list. | ||
| Jake318 |
RSH engines are never close to the limit coming from the factory because they have to pass tough EPA emmissions standards.. especially old fashioned 2 valve air cooled engines. Being they arnt very efficient from the get go they have to be hampered the most. Andy was suggesting a ecomomy package of plaining the heads for compression, bigger valves and free flowing heads cutting down on parts cost ( leaving displacement 1200cc) and looking at 115hpo roughly . thats about a 25% gain in hp. That comes mostly from allowing motor to breath . When you see the japanese /eurpeon ect manufactures in a Horsepower war its not about who CANmake the most HP its who can make thw most HP and pass emmisions . AnD RSH When The Coolers done Ill post DYNO sheets ect DO YOU THINK IM BULLSHITTING? IM A 45 YR OLD MULTI MILLIONARE AND LITTERALLY DYING (heart) WHY WOULD I BULLSHIT!! I DONT NEED MONEY THIS WAS TO HELP OTHERS NOT GET SCREWED BY INCOMPITANT HARLEY DEALERS For The price list just look at revolutions parts list(4300$ full kit) or like I said get cylinders pistons(1000$) and go over options with builder on specific cams ect . And just to keep things in perspective I ran my Ducati 1198 on same dyno for comparison . The 1198 hs been run everywhere(all magazines) | ||
| Jake318 |
ON A LIGHTER NOTE : I Have a Monoque rear tailpiece for a XB12R/XB9R new put it on did like the thin foam seat so off it went . Look on trojans or twins site they sell them there . Painted Firebolt yellow seat thin foam( black ) some people love them some hate it .... FREE TO FIRST PERSON WHO PICKS IT UP.I ALSO HAVE THE RISERS THAT GO WITH IT. 3 INCH RISE ON TAIL OF BIKE | ||
| Rsh |
Jake318, This is not a personal issue, do not take it as such. More people than you have tried to extract more performance out of the XB motor, there just isn't much more to get out of it without spending major cash to get more displacement, to high for the street compression ratio's, wild cams, and hardly worth the money head work. Have you ever heard the term "just because you can doesn't mean you should?" Why do you think it is so hard to get more horsepower out of the XB engine? Because most every mod has already been made at the factory. This is a 1940's technology motor; the EPA is not the main cause of limited performance. For what it is, it's great, I love mine. If I want to go faster I will leave the throttle on longer or brake later. You are an interesting person. May be you should use your money for a new ticker, instead of beating a dead horse. Waiting for the results. | ||
| V74 |
i like this thread, it gives me information on what i can do to improve my 99 M2 keep it going,just less veiled put downs please, | ||
| Jake318 |
RSH I put this up so others do not get screwed by incompitant harley dearlers not to get ..NIT PICKED by a guy that will never do anything to his bike other than wax it or put a new pipe on for sound . YOUR waiting ? why ? WHEN YOU ACTUALLY DO A BUILD THEN YOU CAN BE A CRITIC . UNTIL THEN GO TALK ABOUT WHAT WAX IS BEST. This thread was for people who DO projects not just talk about them. | ||
| Rsh |
Jake318, You have been babbling on and off since September 2009 about posting "your build results" When you started this latest thread of "performance opportunities never before available" and talking of how the costs have come down, I believe you said it was affordable, to build a high output XB, I was very interested. As you leaked info about this and that, I was doing my own research. The fact is, It is still not very affordable for the average person to build a hypo XB such as you are building. Yes, some parts that were not readily available a few years back are available now, and do cost a bit less. You have pointed out that you are a retired millionaire with heart problems. You have the money to do what ever you want, and one of the things is to build the ultimate XB and hopefully help others by doing all the ground work. Good on you. Now you are getting hot and bothered with me, because I say its not as inexpensive as you think to complete the type of build you are doing. You are finding out what I have been saying is true, IT TAKES A FAIR AMOUNT OF CASH, even if you are a millionaire. Sure I am interested in the results, why wouldn't I be, I have an XB, and someone building a motor with the resources to do it properly is most always interesting. In the mean time, I will go talk about wax. | ||
| Blake |
Lose the personal commentary; very bad form there RSH. The man has a valid point, lots of experience, and lots of enthusiasm. Don't be a jerk. | ||
| Blake |
The comment about 1940s tech is misleading. In 1980, a Buell XBRR would likely have been winning races in AMA Superbike. The limitations of the Buell air cooled engines are not old technology; the limitations are the intentional choice of simplicity and long stroking low end performance over peak racing performance. As influenced by Buell, the air-cooled engine doubled in power and improved reliability. Online engines with four valves have been around longer. Why are they so "new tech"? | ||
| Fast1075 |
There are two kinds of people...those that tune with their wallet, and those that tune with their hands and minds. Which kind of person anybody is is a matter of circumstance, drive, skill, and experience...I won't do a hop-up because I don't need more power...and frankly, if I did, I would just go buy an R-1 or a Z1000 or one of those Honda thingies or something..I have been around a long time and have enough sense to know that an XB motor...leaned on really hard WILL come unglued in a lot shorter fashion than most other engines... I agree that it is a great thing to have enough motivation (and cash) to pursue a dream....(I have thrown huge gobs of cash at projects before....simply because I was told that it could not be done...sometimes it worked...sometimes it didn't) Remind me to tell you about a 2.5 Jeep motor one day. | ||
| Slipknot |
Check with Cycle Rama. Look over their dyno charts for different builds. Also Zipper's Performance in Maryland. | ||
| Fast1075 |
"check with Cycle Rama"...Wes and Pammy and crew are the bomb...I know 'em, and recommend them also.. | ||
| Rsh |
Blake, This whole subject started about adding performance to the XB motor, in this case Jake318 is touting XBRR type performance using store bought parts. I stated Buell hot rodded the XB motor from the factory, and it would take a descent pile of cash to extract XBRR type of performance out of it. Being that the best minds and relatively deep pockets put the XBRR together. I do not know how Erik and company got the budget to build the XBRR motor. Building so few, everything they built must have been sold for a loss. If you look at the details of the motor, everything is essentially one off, nothing left unturned and very little in common with the XB motor. It was a work of art, with performance to match. In the little pieces of Jake318's project that have come out, and looking up the current prices on my own, I can see the bill is most likely over 5K. Now, I can see spending 5K may be affordable to some and not others, some may or may not find it a worthwhile project. The only thing I have questioned is the affordability aspect of the project. If I can get XBRR performance with store bought parts for an affordable price. Essentially, I already know it cant be done. I have an 1170 XB9 with all the bells and whistles having spent my 5K already. It does not compare to my stock 1125R. I have said I applaud Jake318's effort, and have been waiting to see the results. | ||
| Xb1221 |
F1fletch, Strato9r's question is how the 1169cc CCS/Daytona USA class race bikes were built. These being based on the 3.1 stroke crank to race as a 1200cc motor. I have several e-mails back and forth with Walt Sipps, a member here, and he explained a lot about these motors. I bought one of these retired race bikes previously posted and had to ask the question "what toy prices are inside?" They start with blemed lower cases and stamp RACE USE ONLY on them then machine them correctly. They stuff an XB9 crank in it with a lightened flywheel. They add the Millenium 3 13/16" jugs and pistons at 10.5:1 compression. They add 525 Red Shift cams, Stage 2 or 3 heads and roller rockers. They add their ECU map for the pipe they are running, mine had the Beson exhaust, and end up just shy of 100 rear wheel HP w/ these 1169 motors. Geared 21/47 or 21/48 160 mph straights are obtainable. These hit a soft redline at 7500 and shut off at 8000 rpm....1000 over stock. This is the "HP Land" we are all looking for and where it's made. Mine dyno'd 96 rear wheel HP. 9 vs 12 thread: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/377171.html?1253972306 Issue with these motors has always been piston speed. Lots of posts here on this if you search piston speed. Read up and make your choices. The 1198 and other Ducks have been compared to the XB motors and the limitation seems to be the stroke and high piston speed. Walt mentioned they would build or have different motors using all three available strokes....3.1, 3.5 and 3.8 depending on the track. His bike currently for sale makes 118 rear wheel as an 88" with a 3.8 crank in it. Way cool indeed!! Walts' bike: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/21/ 561771.html?1273094784 These bikes are both examples of what can be done with these machines. All words of caution should also heeded. Randy warned me when I bought his bike that exploring the upper regions of the tach will dramatically shorten the lifespan of the motor and they don't always shut down gracefully if you're on them and going fast. He went through 6 motors in one weekend trying to what he did best...run at the top of the pack. I..like you...love the Buell product and everything Erik had put into it. We all wished that Eric had built a bike that more completely fulfilled our expectations...even though some of these are mere numbers on a piece of paper. We are all looking for a little more "soul" out of our bikes perhaps? I bought a retired race bike because I feel that was what Eric should have been making for years. There is a still a group of us that like a full fairing, a loud pipe and tires we trust with our very lives to enjoy the vast ribbons of asphalt we yearn for. PM me if you'd like as I have the Beson pipe up for sale now. It's too loud to leave my street at 6:30 in the morning and not have my neighbors on their porches with shotguns. Shoot me a price if the listing is too high. This pipe will help you get the numbers you're looking for and I won't be doing any track days any time soon. I wish you the best in your quest to build the dream. I went through many of your same conversations till a turn key bike came up for sale. Classified Post: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/21/ 577281.html?1279281538 Previous Beson post: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/21/ 439012.html My bike: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/327 77/556784.html | ||
| Rsh |
Xb1221, I have that exact motor build, Mine started as an XB9. I wanted to build a Hals/Kosco Rich Conrath replica after watching Ciccotto and Barney racing in the XB early days. I was never able to find a Beson exhaust, I ended up using a Micron with good results. Kind of funny, my bike looks just like yours, all the way down to the Hals welded on frame sliders. Good luck selling your stuff. | ||
| Strato9r |
Hey, thanks for the particulars on that short stroke engine, Steven! It really puts things in perspective regarding the capabilities of the XB engine, long or short stroke. I certainly applaud the efforts of everyone who is still attempting to squeeze the last bit of power out of the air cooled mill, but it seems that pushing it much beyond the 110 horsepower mark gets really expensive, really fast. Again, cudos to Buell for doing an awesome job on the original combo. | ||
| Jake318 |
This was not meant to cause an arguement this was meant to tell everyone that the big horsepower gains that Cyclerama , JTS and others attained could be achieved using fuel injection now that Erik Buell racing sells the racing injectors and 450cfm fuel regulators .. Before this The big numbers they achieved could only be done by switching over to mikuni 45 carburation . A task that is a nightmare of a job in itself . This Build was done JUST TO SEE WHAT COULD BE GOTTEN OUT OF THE XB ENGINE .... Like FAST said it was a build because I love Buell bikes, If it was just for speed i would have kept my ZX14 instead of trading it in on a Triumph Sprint ST (phenominal Bike BTW). The BEST thing that cam out of this build in my opion wasnt SPEED it was the advent of the forced air oil cooler. This is for longevity of the engine and has nothing to do with speed . | ||
| Jake318 |
BTW the reason this build took SO DAM LONG? DEALERS ( lancaster harley davidson) who originally did the build , PROMISED to have it done in 2 months tops? then took 6 months only to LIE about what they got on Dyno . fouled up the build in 10 different ways only to want engine back to try it again because the ..expert.. engine builder ended up being a new mechanic that never had done a big bore or High performance engine build in his life . THIS IS WHAT I DONT WANT TO SEE HAPPEN TO ANOUTHER BUELLER !! IF YOU WANT THE JOB DONE CORRECTLY TAKE IT TO A JTS, SIMONS COMPETITION, CYCLE RAMA , NHRS OR BRIAN NALLIN ... A REAL PROFESSIONAL BUILDER THATS IN YOUR AREA. THEY ARE ALL ON THIS SITE AS REPUTABLE SHOPS. In the end you will have a faster and more reliable machine | ||
| Xbgeorge |
Jake, This is a very interesting thread. Please keep us updated. I'm very interested in seeing what you come up with. Thank you RSH, The comment about using his money to buy a new ticker, tells me everything I need to know about you. |
