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Curtyd
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 08:10 pm: | 
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Anyone hear anything about some synthetic oils being too "slick" for some bearings used in HD's? A old HD Dealer, racer & owner drew me a picture of a bearing that needs oil with a certain amount of resistance otherwise the bearing doesn't spin against the surface it touches and you end up with a bearing surface staying in one position because the lubricant had too little adhesion or resistance properties. Maybe he was talking about the synthetic additives like teflon, but he mentioned it in the context of NOT running synthetic oils. Anyone tear down a motor and seen this lopsided bearing wear and can equate it with any known factor. oil, over heating etc.? Thanks.
edited by CurtyD on April 16, 2004 |
Xb9er
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 08:37 pm: |
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synthetic oils being too "slick" for some bearings used in HD's
That is a widespread myth.
Another myth: Any lubricant with Teflon in it = reduced friction. If it's got Teflon in it is nothing more than snake Oil.
Mike. |
Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 08:38 pm: |
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Curtyd, you CAN go back at anytime, just do an oilchange and use what you like. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 08:42 pm: |
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I hope Blake doesn't see this thread.
Quick, put the pin back in the grenade! |
Xb9er
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 01:13 am: |
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Good point 'flesh.
Fact: Synthetic is better for your motor than Dino.
I was wondering if I was ever going to get to use this Emoticon:
Mike. |
Curtyd
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 05:16 pm: |
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On my way out to Autozone soon for the Mobil 1 Moto Oil, last question, is it the 20-50 for the transmission or the gear oil? What weight is the HD Sports Tran fluid and which is the closest to it in the Mobil 1? Thanks. |
Xb9er
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 07:21 pm: |
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Gear Oil 75W-90
Motor Oil 20W-50 V-Twin oil.
You can use the 20W-50 oil in both the engine and the primary/transmission.
I refuse to comment on the HD lubricants!!
Mike. |
Fullpower
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 07:47 pm: |
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HD does specifically state that 20W-50 synthetic motor oil can be used in both the engine oil tank, and the transmission/chaincase of the sportster and Buell motorcycles. does not get any simpler then that does it? |
Curtyd
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 08:05 pm: |
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So the old saw is true, opinions are like ass*****, everyone's got one. (Sorry, just had to react a bit)
One says gear oil, another says 20-50. I KNOW the HD synthetic is 20-50 for both. I don't play with these motos every other weekend, and only in the summer, if it's not raining. I ride all the time, my wife can't get me in a cage when it's just me, even with a hurricane out. I am not a mechanical engineer and actually am a pretty piss poor mechanic. (It really upsets me when I run into techs who are less proficient than I am).
I ride 365 a year, after this oil change I'll run 230 miles to tampa and back, warranty expired in March. I don't want any expensive repairs because someone didn't have the knowledge he professed to have.
Any x-country runners out there with an opinion? It would just give me that warm fuzzy feeling described above to hear that someone switched to the synthetic and did what I'll end up doing running cross state or country without a problem, "ran better, cooler, shifted better" and all that personal witnessing stuff. PEACE.
edited by curtyd on April 17, 2004 |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 10:32 pm: |
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The 20w50 full synthetic is fine for the tranny, but the mobil 1 Gear Oil is better. It has additives that hold up better in a gear box, but that they can't put in normal motor oil as if it were to burn up in the combustion chamber it would leave terrible deposits.
The actual weights of both are about the same. Gear oil gets a different scale then motor oil, to keep the numbers different. It is almost the same base stuff, just with different additive packages.
20w50 good. Mobil 1 Gear oil, better. |
Captainkirk
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 01:35 am: |
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My 2 cents;
Any oil, dino or synth, will work as long as it's CLEAN. That is, as long as it's formulated for air-cooled motorcycles.The primary job(s) of the oil is to clean and cool. If it's full of carbon and acids it can't do either. As much as you ride you should probably change your oil once a month regardless of mileage. BTW, salesman told me the same story, which in my mind is a bunch of bulls***. I do believe synth oils do a better job all around, but the cost leads people to stretch the interval between oil changes to justify the cost which negates the whole thing. Use what you want. I use HD 20W50 and change it(very)often. |
Curtyd
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 10:07 am: |
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I agree about increasing frequency of oil changes. I hardly ever go beyond 2500 miles. My first oil change after break in was at 800 miles. Expense of the synthetics is exactly as you say, by making oil changes 35 to 40 dollars instead of 15 to 20 I might not change it as often. I was hoping to hear again from "Reepicheap" because he gave the most facts in his previous posts. I'll probably make the switch because of the higher temp. rating. Why is it they always said before if you switch to synthetics you can't go back? Is it the clutch plate material being inundated with the synthetic oil? Thanks for the help. PEACE. |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 10:28 am: |
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Actually if you read the two part series on oils in Motorcycle magazine, there are clear advantages to using synthetic oil regardless of how clean the oils are.
Synth DOES last longer but that is not the major diff. There is simply no comparison, as the tests in the article clearly proved.
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Brucelee
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 10:29 am: |
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PS- you can go back to dino after synth and vise versa. You can also mix dino and synth if you had to to.
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Curtyd
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 12:19 pm: |
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So, back from autozone, no Mobil1 gear oil available at the first store. So I''l have to look around a bit or settle for the 20-50. Another question, someone above says the 15-50 is the same as the 20-50, True or NO? That saves about 3.50/quart. Anything special about the V-Twin labeled oil making it worth the extra bucks, or is it just the label appealing to the well-healed high dollar HD crowd? |
Chainsaw
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 01:12 pm: |
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Any x-country runners out there with an opinion?
I've rode in 27 States, Canada and Mexico. My last epic trip is in the Tale Section under "Colorado to South Carolina • The Scenic Route".
Mobil 1 75W-90 Gear Oil in the primary ($6.99 quart), Valvoline Synthetic 20W50 ($4.25 quart) in the engine in both my bikes. The tranny shifts marginally better and the Synthetic oil runs 30 some degrees cooler.
I like being able to find these fluids at any given gas station or auto parts store in any podunk town, makes for two less things to pack.
I've mixed dino with synth with no ill effects. I've mixed different weights of oil too, with no ill effects. FWIW: Sporty is just under 29,000 miles, Firebolt is over 11,000.
Bottom line, use what you're comfortable with. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 03:36 pm: |
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Clutch is fine with synthetic, no problem going back and forth.
Here are some nice facts... look at the viscosity retention after 1500 miles at the end.
http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm |
Captainkirk
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 01:11 am: |
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Think of it this way; when the oil starts to darken, it's doing what it was intended to do: attract and suspend contaminates. These are primarily carbon particles, acids(formed from sulfuric acid and water, a byproduct of combustion), gasoline and combustion byproducts, suspended metal particles (measured in parts per million, i.e. atomic particles)and other assorted nasties. I agree with the theory that synth is probably better overall...PROVIDED you change it as frequently as you would dino drippings. Modern motor oils are designed to hold all of the above in suspension up to a designed saturation point...sort of like a vacuum cleaner bag. When it's full, it's time to change it. As I said before, oil is the cheapest insurance policy you can buy. That's the only downside to synth,IMHO. At 7 bucks a quart people tend to stretch the interval past the oil's ability to suspend the offending contaminates, and voila, engine trouble. Change it every 60 days regardless of running time and you may waste good oil but not a good motor. Just make sure you use an oil formulated for air cooled V-twins as they do have different additives than automotive oils designed for multicylinder liquid cooled engines. If you can live with dumping your expensive synth every 60 days, by all means go for it. Otherwise, dino drippings look awfully good as an alternative. Think of it this way: if you change your (dino) oil five times a year it'll cost you $30 bucks plus the filters. A motor rebuild will run you a couple grand, at best. Do the math. I just dumped my oil and filter today. After totalling up mileage I had like 500 miles on the oil- tough shit! It was time. Clean oil=good. Dirty oil=bad. End of lesson! |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 09:38 am: |
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"I agree with the theory that synth is probably better overall...PROVIDED you change it as frequently as you would dino drippings. Modern motor oils are designed to hold all of the above in suspension up to a designed saturation point...sort of like a vacuum cleaner bag. When it's full, it's time to change it"
None of the above is supported by the testing of motor oils. Synth lasts much longer than dino oil, maintains its ability to lubricate, its viscosity and more inportantly, resists its own breakdown more effectively.
Some of the change in oil appearance is due to the OIL ITSELF degrading. Syth oil degrades much more slowly than dino oil.
So, unless you want to show some research to back up your claims that dino oil is as effective as synth oil over time, I am afraid we have to consider you post in that light.
Additionally, several magazines have tested the claims of MC oil being superior to auto oils. None have found that to be true.
Mobil One 15-50 actually tests out superior to most if not all of the MC synth oils.
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Curtyd
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 06:52 pm: |
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Done..like every good gearhead and infant daddy I got the Mobil1 in the transmission and engine today after my wife left for work. My six month daughter did great.
She spent the drain of the tranny in her bouncy chair, got bored after awhile and I moved her around a bit with some music and then into the bassinet play pen for the draining of the oil tank and the filling of the transmission. Hooked up the walkie talkies, then when she started getting upset again, came back in to get her down for a nap.
Spent the naptime wrestling with one recalcitrant screw on the fairing lower, eventually left it in and pulled the lowers around and down to get access to the oil filter. Still sleeping... so topped it off and start it up, put the lower back on and about then she is waking up but in pulls my brother-in-law so he gets the baby holding duty and I can pull the transmission access plate and double check the clutch diagram spring was back in right.
I won't get any chance to ride it until work tomorrow at 6:30AM, but I left it running about 20 minutes in the driveway and it actually seems to be running cooler, or is that my hope...One more short nap and the walkie talkies let me recheck the oil level in the transmission, looks GREAT, can't wait until the morning.
The Metzeler Z6's and the HH EBC brake pads go in hopefully at Orlando HD on Wednesday and then i can make the Tampa-St. Pete run to bring my mother back in her VW Passat to visit with the baby, YEE HAW, life seems pretty darn right. Keep it coming HP.
LIFE WITH DADDY!
ENGINE; MOBIL 1 20-50 V-TWIN.
TRANSMISSION; MOBIL 1 75-90 GEAR OIL.
edited by curtyd on April 19, 2004
edited by curtyd on April 19, 2004 |
Bigj
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 08:50 pm: |
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Harley Syn 3 oil is especially engineered to provide MORE friction than regular HD oil. This enables the roller bearing to grip the rolling surface much better. HD came out with this oil because of many requests from dealers who had to make warranty repairs on engines that blew due to "skidding roller bearings". The assumption is that there will be absolutely no more engine failures in ANY HD built engine. "Skidding roller bearings" were/are the cause of ALL HD engine failures, as any good mechanic knows. |
Xb9er
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 10:08 pm: |
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Bigj, Very Funny. absolutely no more engine failures in ANY HD built engine
Mike. |
Captainkirk
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 12:45 am: |
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Bruce,
I don't believe I claimed dino oil is "better" or lasts longer than synth. On the contrary, the tech articles I've read show the synth to be superior in more than one way...except it costs twice as much. The point I was trying to make was that IMHO clean petroleum-based oil is preferable to dirty synthetic oil. And this was the battle cry of the synthetics, early on; "Twice the time between oil change intervals!" This, to justify double the cost of the synth. I don't buy it. I will not argue the superiority of the synthetic, but I think the dino drippings are perfectly adequate provided you change it before it gets excessively contaminated or begins to break down. And for the record, that's MY opinion, nobody else's. I don't need "research" to back up what to me appears to be common sense-clean oil is better for an engine than dirty oil, synthetic or otherwise. |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 10:07 am: |
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I would certainly agree that a clean dino is pref to dirty synth. And even though I use synth I do change it frequently (2500 miles) as I too like the look of clean oil.
However, as you point out, syth is superior in ever way to dino. So even if the two oils are both clean, synth will run cooler, hold its viscosity better, and stay effective longer than dino. That is what justifies the price diff in my book.
As a point of info, Porsche recommends changing oil in its 911 and Boxster every 15K miles! They do that because they use Mobil 1 as factory fill and when they do your oil changes. I find that pretty compelling given these cars are under warranty and very expensive to fix.
Porsche must know something!
BMW uses 10 K fills with same recs on oil.
Fascinating no?
For me, it is Mobil 15-50 and 75-90 all the way.
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Dcmortalcoil
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 09:10 pm: |
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Bigj wrote:
"Skidding roller bearings" were/are the cause of ALL HD engine failures, as any good mechanic knows.
I've read many articles about so called "skidding roller bearings." Bottom line, they all say it's a sheer nonsense, concocted by HD for their excuse for not recommending synthetic. If roller bearing skids, that means there is less friction between the two moving metal components than the bearing journals. If that were the case, we wouldn't need bearings. I would have to agree that skidding roller bearing is a mere myth. If the bearing does not roll, then it's a faulty bearing design. My 2 cent. |
Captainkirk
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 12:55 am: |
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Well, I've thought about changing to Mobil 1 but it seems like I'm dumping the oil once a month or so during the heavy riding season- just doesn't seem worth the extra $ when I'm draining it that often. I get paranoid about dirty oil. I guess I'm concerned with top cylinder wear more than anything. What's the "average" life of a Buell top end? I'm at 11k now. |
Curtyd
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 07:10 am: |
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I put way over 30K on my 1999 M2. the heads were off a couple of times to replace an exhaust bolt stud that broke off. My tech at the time, a friend, said the heads, cylinder and pistons still always looked good. No real reason to worry about them. Something in the crank area will probably give out first based on the big pistons exploding downward all the time. |
Bvan
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 08:15 am: |
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My S3 was rebored to 0.20 inch overzize at 23K. Your cylinders may still look good, but you can only be sure if you take a measurement. You will be surprised how much wear they have. My advise :
If you take the heads off and your not sure take a measurement. A honing job is very cheap and if you have already made the effort of taking off the heads, then taking off the cylinders is not much more work.
If you don't have any compression loss, there really is no reason to pull the heads. If it isn't broke ... |
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