| Author | Message | ||
     Wyckedflesh |
Dyna that is Sampson's method of operation. | ||
| Richieg150 |
Well I just went to NRHS website,and still can buy the Force exhaust for all you XB'ers for 949.95.So,the exhaust,as it is now,is a piece of shit,and it continues to be sold!I heard of the pipes breaking LONG BEFORE august,and Im not selling them, whoever is selling them needs to get their shit together and quit adding fuel to the fire by continuing to sell the XB pipe.I agree that if the CUSTOMER is VALUED and RIGHT,whoever sold the pipe,and if the pipe broke within the original 90 day warranty that the pipe originally came with,should refund the cost of the pipe PLUS the cost of shipping it back to them.Let the seller take it up with the manufacturer of the pipe,seems to me they would have greater leverage that the buyer.Lets see,27 pipes at 949.95 each is 25648.65, plus shipping.Now does anyone really think there will be that kind of money refunded just to make 27 people happy.........NOT.Theyve got what they wanted..your money.How about selling the pipes,then if they dont break,after 90 days you send them the money for the pipe! | ||
| Richieg150 |
To compare these 27 exhaust pipes breaking,to the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of FIRESTONE tires that were defective.....defies logic!TRY AGAIN! | ||
| Josh_ |
So Richie, explain again if this doesn't actually affect you, why are you being such a prick? It does affect Misato and he's composed. edited by josh_ on March 31, 2004 | ||
| Court |
>>>>>As a middle-man retailer in this case, this is the only real course of action we have available to us - it's 100-percent the manufacture's play to make. That is an accurate statement. As a customer, prior to making any purchase, I research and investigate, product comparison and evaluations. In the distribution chain a retailer is just that; not a designer, engineeer or manufacturer. The retailer is responsible for the retail portion of the transaction...accepting convenient forms of payment, advertising, shipping and customer type stuff...an intermediary between the customer and the manufacturer. Ever seen anyone sue their Ford dealer when their Pinto exploded? The concept, as it applies to UCC and Commerical Paper, is called "holder in due course". The UCC details differ, but the concept of one who simpley enables a commmercial transaction helps explain things. Also, on a bit of a personal note, I find any inference NRHS shirking reponsibility to erode the credibility of the posting. I know the folks, their integrity and their honesty. Court | ||
| Buckinfubba |
Misato I was not saying you were foolish. I was saying that for the fact that force now says "no warranty" why would anyone buy the product and if they did well so be it. sorry you misunderstood me I was not infering you at all. I would not have held out as long as you have. I would of been up their ass so hard they couldn't see straight at this point. And if my actions closed their doors....oh well. I was a business owner for 15 years prior to this buell thingy. As an owner who wants to stay in business, especially in a niche market, you must work extra hard to satisfy your customers or else the business dies. anybody that does any research om force before buying their products for now on will know. I don't see the sun shining on the force legacy very long. Damn shame also, I don't wish that on anybody, but force is not taking responsibilty for their product. If a persons ego makes them go into business and put their name on a product they damn well better be ready to take the good with the bad. acolades are always lined with shit | ||
| Buckinfubba |
and please don't anybody say that force is taking responsibilty by the fact that they say they are redesigning it. pipes are not rocket science....it can't take this long. old school work ethic says...take your time the first time to get it right....because it takes ahell of alot longer to fix your mistakes | ||
| Shazam |
by Richie: "I heard of the pipes breaking LONG BEFORE august,and Im not selling them" this is very misleading Richie..... and I think intentionally so.... You did not hear of any XB pipes from Farce breaking until the middle of Sept. and at that time you were informed BY ME that mine was not the first. | ||
| Misato |
buckin, srry, I took that wrong..  on another note, I left another vmail. the nice weather is not helping me stay, as josh put it, 'composed' at least it has been over winter. if this happened say may-june and took 6 months I'm not sure what I would do. Probably take a road trip to AZ how much is a tig welder? 8oP pipeless in seattle, tim | ||
| Az28 |
Has anyone taken one of these pipes to a welder, and had it repaired and reinforced at the breakage points? Or are they bad beyond any repair? I would think that any pipe builder could rework it to hold up, and get you back on the road quickly. You can get a small wire feed welder big enough for exhaust work for under $200. Look on ebay. Good luck. JR | ||
| M1combat |
Farce is in AZ? If so lemme know, I'll head over there for you and say hi. At least have them show me your pipe and the techs diligently slaving away in an effort to re-weld it or fix it in some fashion... | ||
| Buckinfubba |
lake havasu...or some sort of spelling | ||
| Buellriderm2 |
Sam, Thanks for exposing the flaw in Rich's rhetoric. For whatever reason he's been on the warpath against us since Brian's departure. As I mentioned above Aaron and I are working as quick as we can to remove the listing for those pipes from the website, and have not allowed the sale of one since August. Again I promise to continue to pursue the matter with Force and work toward a satisfactory solution. Justin Schilling Sales NRHS V-Twin Performance | ||
| Gonen60 |
I left another vmail Misato, I would ring there phone of the bloody hook until I had it resolved. you have been a gentleman up to this point, now you have the right to be a little brash. | ||
| Misato |
yeah but they have my pipe. if it was in my hand I might be a little more 'colorfull' in talking to them. its a small damn crack and I should have never sent it back and just had it welded. I should also make them pay the dealer for storing it for 6 months. I'm tired of calling them. I'm tired of talking to them. I hear the same thing, '2 weeks- its on my bike and I'm testing it'. I've heard that one at least 4 times. then you have the 'we dont know when' thats always a good to hear. | ||
| Gonen60 |
How far away do you live from them? Might be time for a road trip, to have a face to face, and pick up your pipe. | ||
| Misato |
seattle to somewhere in AZ. just talked to Dave, he said my pipe is on his bike and he is testing the mounts. the pipe is going to be in 3 peices and you install one header at a time then they slip into the collector which is held together by springs. also the gen II pipes will not have the mounts for the chin fairing on them, they will be moved to mount off the motor somehow. I should see the pipe next week.  he said they are fixing them basically one at a time as they get them in. I didn't ask how many they had to do. he sounds like a nice guy and said thanks for working with them on all this but.. what else could he say? my cell died before I could get any other info.  | ||
| Dyna |
Scooter tried having his welded & it held up fine....for a whole day. Its been pointed out here that the metal used in the Force pipe is simply too thin. | ||
| Richieg150 |
Wrong I heard of the XB pipes breaking at homecoming,which was what month?The guy at American Thunderbike broke one there,and recommended to John at Force a possible solution. Josh,how is the comparision from apples to oranges making me a prick?Hundreds of thousands of tires being replaced isnt at all like 27 exhausts.This all could be resolved very easily,by just not selling XB Force pipes until its straightened out,and offering those who have broken pipes a refund or the option on waiting until they get the problem fixed.So simple,but ouch in the pocket book. | ||
| Richieg150 |
For some reason I thought homecoming was in June last year,not August.So,August is when I started hearing rumors about breaking pipes...MY BAD. | ||
| Usapitbullz |
OK, I made a call to Force...Imagine that! Talked to Georgia, she said Dave was out testing and to leave my number. I asked if he would call me back, this was yesterday, no call back as of tonight. Ahhhhh the life of a Force product support specialist, must be GREAT! L8R, JM | ||
| Josh_ |
Not the apples and oranges but more like just hashing over and over "by just not selling XB Force pipes until its straightened out" when the sales guy at NHRS has already explained they did stop selling them as soon as there was a problem and the current web page is in error and in fact they are not selling Force. Even Gonen60 has redirected his vents towards Force. | ||
| Shazam |
Not too big a man to admit I was wrong, my apologies Richie. | ||
| Aaron |
Josh, thanks, but let it go. He's living up to everything I was warned about, over a year ago. But it doesn't matter. To our customers who bought this pipe and had a failure, I owe it to you to let you know the situation, and to do what I can for you. First, a little background. The relationship between Force and NRHS predates me, but as I understand it, NRHS was with Force in the beginning, doing some development together, promoting their products, and a relationship was formed. Apparently out of that relationship NRHS acquired the right (informally, I believe) to attach the NRHS name to the big bore version of the pipe. This was (and is) a mutually beneficial relationship: Force gets someone who's making big power with their product and promoting it, and NRHS get a pipe capable of making big power, which of course is the business we're in. That's incredibly important to us btw, for example it does me no good at all to ship a set of 125hp heads if the customer has a pipe that sets a 110hp limit on his motor. The power of a motor tends to be defined by the part that's holding it back, not how many good parts it has in it, and there are precious few exhaust systems on the market that are capable of letting a motor make really big power. Anyway, when Force designed and made the XB pipe, they sent us a couple of prototypes, which we installed on bikes and tuned and reported back on. We also used the results to help promote the product. Again, a mutually beneficial relationship, not at all unusual. But we didn't actually have an exclusive right to the product. Force listed it on their regular dealer price sheet, and I assume they sold it through other dealers as well. This truly is a Force product, we are simply a dealer with a closer-than-most relationship to Force. Anyway, you can imagine how disappointing this whole situation is to us. We use and believe in Force products, hell, I have a Force pipe on my personal M2. We love the sound and performance and the XB pipe is no exception, the performance gain from that pipe is nothing short of astonishing. We WANT the product to work, and we definitely want our customers to be happy with it. Customers are just too hard to come by, we have to make sure that every one of our customers feels like he gets his money's worth when he buys from us. Let's face it, we're not Wally World, we sell premium stuff and we get good money for it. This pipe was supposed to be that kind of a product. As soon as it became apparent that the failures were due to an inadequate design of the product, we quit selling it. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what he's talking about. Don't hold me to this, but I believe my good friend SteveP was the last person to get one, back in September. Let me check the books. I can assure you it's been awhile though. Yeah, some people have tried to order them since then, but we haven't accepted the orders, and the one guy who paid us with his order got a refund. But regardless, my main concern is with the customers who bought the pipe before then and subsequently had it fail on them. These people deserve to be made whole. The emotional side of me wants to just hit it with a hammer, do something to make it right. Ideally I'd just send everyone their money back and collect from Force. The logical side of me says I'm nuts. There is no way in hell I could do that and keep the business solvent. You're really willing to sacrifice the business and put 4 good people out of work because you feel bad over a vendor mistake? And do reasonable people really expect that of you? Back to the tire analogy, which I think is a good one, would Joe's Tire and Wheel liquidate their business and refund $30K if they found out after the fact that the Firestone's they sold were defective? Would anybody reasonably expect them to do that? Or is it Firestone's responsibility? So I'm more than a little bit conflicted on this whole deal. I'm simply not in a position to eat Force's mistake, but at the same time, I want very badly to help out my customers. What can I do here that will help out? To those of you out there who bought the pipe from us and had it fail, please contact me. Let me offer what I can. | ||
| M1combat |
Well said Aaron. Personally I think the most you should offer is to keep a lot of pressure on Force to get the damn job done. What I don't understand is why they haven't kept the owners of the pipe updated WRT their progress. Anyway, I'm very much a third party here as I don't own a Force pipe. But... Some day I MIGHT. | ||
| Court |
>>>Personally I think the most you should offer is to keep a lot of pressure on Force to get the damn job done. Put my vote in that column. Logic: Force, as the designer and manufacturer, bears responsibility for the product. NRHS, as the seller, is responsible to provide and maintain the supply chain. NRHS has been honest and forthright with the folks who have placed their trust with you. The "closer than most" provides a unique opportunity for NRHS to motivate a resolution. Keep focused on the role YOU play in the relationship and continue to do it well. Honesty in providing top drawer performance and Aaron are synonyms. Keep focused on that. I also do not, nor have I ever, owned a Force pipe. But, I would not buy any product without the nod from NRHS, American Sport Bike, Pammy/Wes or the other performance folks here who know this stuff. In short, I'd suggest NRHS offer to: 1) Motivate resolution from Force. 2) Be honest and keep customers informed. Court (by the way, I sat on Henrik's XB and the fate of the Force pipe may be important to me personally in the future...I'm feeling the pull.  ) | ||
| Buckinfubba |
aaaaahhhhh court its about time you came into the new.....xb's pulling on court..... what next,... | ||
| Buellgator |
What about those of us who have bought one and it hasn't broken yet. What do we do when a month down the road the thing breaks. Shell out another grand to Force for the redesign? | ||
| Jim_witt |
What about those of us that "haven't" purchased one but were thinking about buying one. I'd like to get something out of all this too! -JW:>  | ||
| Aaron |
Court, M1, than you for the comments. Keeping pressure on Force is a given. What I'm really looking for is some way to make things as right as I can with my customers. I know I can't make up for this mess, but I can certainly help them out in other ways. That's what I had in mind. Buellgator, hopefully you won't have a failure. If you do, hopefully Force will have their fix sorted out by then and take care of you. If that doesn't pan out, send the pipe to me. We have a Tig setup and we'll fix it and figure out how to beef the thing up in the problem area. If you want to do some preventative things, I think that would be a good idea. My experience has been that in general, more attachment points tends to be a good thing on Buell pipes, it reduces the load on each one. For example, my '99 M2 will destroy any exhaust system in short order if I don't replicate the '96-'98 style collector mount. Stiffness in mounting is another thing I've found helpful ... when the pipe can move too independently of the motor, things break. Just look at how Buell addressed the issue on the tube framers, they substantially stiffened the mounting. |
