| Author | Message | ||
     Jonnyrotton |
So,I always hear from guys who ride jap bikes that the helicon engine in the 1125r is a Rotax design. Now I know that the motor was built by Rotax but was it also designed by them as well? Or is it a Buell design that was then later built by Rotax to keep the tooling cost for Buell down. When I say designed by Buell I actually mean that they sat down and drew up the architecture with all the specs. Or did Buell just go to Rotax and say " I want a motor that produces x amount of horsepower, is a twin, and will fit this frame" | ||
| Nik |
As an engineer for an aerospace engine supplier, I will say the answer is probably something in between those two scenarios you postulated. It's not likely that Buell designed every nut and bolt of the thing, but they likely did have a hand in the development of the design as it evolved from the initial spec. | ||
| Newxb12ss |
Buell and Rotax co-designed the power plant. Buell had looked at current Rotax (and others) design and had input on desirable features to be implemented, along with Rotax design staff who helped fine-tune details to come up with the ideal finished product. | ||
| Court |
The basics were designed in 1986. When Buell went to Rotax (and a couple other potential bidders) they had a complete set of specifications. | ||
| Court |
Rotax, by the way, entered into embargo agreements and may not transfer any of the "Buell Technology" to any other products. Rotax took the specs and turned them into the Helicon. There were a group of Buell Engineers from WI who worked with Rotax in Austria during this process. | ||
| Greg_e |
So if the basic design was conceived in 1986, how much of that IP really belongs to HD? | ||
| 1324 |
Court, So did Buell approach Rotax with specifications or details/tolerances/etc.? As you know, there is quite the difference. I'd like to know the real story, too. | ||
| Davegess |
It was a collabrative process. Buell had a final broad engine spwc in mind; really how much power and how they wanted delviered. Erik has said somewhere that they wanted the feel of an XB motor but one that didn't run out of breath at 5000 RPM but keep right on pulling up to 11000 or something like that. In other words a very flat torque curve that made the bibe easy to ride fast or slow. Not peaky. The actual engine size was determined by the ridability requirements. Buell looked at I think 3 suppliers and wes struck by how well Rotax "got it". I have heard that the engineers were brainstroming ideas back and forth between Buell and Rotax before any contracts had even been signed. The design is really a colaberation between the two companies with Rotax providing the real detail stuff, how to size a bearing say, while th etwo groups bounce overal ideas off each other. I suspect it would be hard to say just exactly where the Buell desing work is and where the Rotax stuff is. | ||
| Mqracing |
I would guess that Davegess' response is close to being spot on. I would venture a guess that it was a collabarative effort btwn the two companies. Breaking down the contributions (say percentage wise) by each would probably be quite difficult to do. I would venture a guess that Erik was well, well aware of Rotax's capabilities. And I would venture a further guess that in addition to Erik feeling comfortable with the engineering prowess of Rotax that he probably also felt a great degree of confidence of their manufacturing quality and capacities. But what does all of this matter anyway? Us guessing who did what? There's a product out there... independent of who did what the product sez all that needs to bee or can bee said, heh? | ||
| Buford |
Wonder if this relationship will continue? | ||
| Froggy |
Mqracing, Dave is more than "close to being spot on"  | ||
| Court |
I assure you Dave is "spot on". | ||
| Mqracing |
Froggy and Court (and Dave). Apologies if my post came across the wrong way. I meant it to be fully supportive of Dave's post. I just usually try to excercise a bit of restraint in posting so that instead of saying "spot dead on" I'm more likely to say "close to being spot on". But his account is the one that makes the most sense to me. In any case... I'm also happy that Erik's new enterprise will continue to support the 1125. I only wish I had known this before I purchased the XB12-XT during the blowout sales event. I had considered the 1125CR but thought that support might be stronger for the XB based engines long into the future. If I would have known this later development I would have probably sprung for the 1125. | ||
| Donniej |
Rumor mill has it that it was built to Buell's specifications... and that it also had a 3% failure rate. The company never made a profit and with mounting warranty claims, HD pulled the plug. Failures mostly involved high oil consumption and aledgedly a handful burst into flames. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Just when we thought the rumor mill had been shut off... ...aledgedly a handful burst into flames. Well, there's a new one. I don't even thing Brad1445 at sport-touring.net, the most ardent hater of all things vaguely associated with the 1125, ever claimed that. | ||
| Donniej |
I have no ax to grind... It's just a rumor I caught in mechanical engineering circles. | ||
| F22raptor |
"mechanical engineering circles"you don't need to say anything more...... | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well, I'm a mechanical engineer and I never heard that one (about the 1125's bursting into flame). For that matter, I'm not in any "circles" that I know of...  | ||
| Fast1075 |
It would seem to be that "bursting into flames" would be a Fuel System problem...LOL | ||
| Sloppy |
This happens ALL THE TIME! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_com bustion | ||
| Mudinmyvaynes |
Being a pyrotechnician, I could make it "burst into flames", it'd probably fry alot of stuff and depending whether you used petrol or something like magnesium or aluminum powder mixed with ammonium perchlorate or potassium perchlorate. I would set a small charge of magnesium powder with potassium perchlorate under a small baggie of race fuel and then ignite the charge. Mag powder with potassium perchlorate has subsonic deflagration, meaning it blows up with minimal blast damage compared to supersonic detonation like packed black powder. This way it wont make the baggie of fuel into a fuel air-explosive bomb and will isolate the fire. | ||
| Fast1075 |
The peculiar thing is there has never been mention of either problem on these boards..and there have been no shortage of complaints about a lot of stuff...real or imagined... I would really like to have a '25....but I missed the boat with my recent purchase of an XB...can't budget both  (Message edited by fast1075 on November 25, 2009) | ||
| Chessm |
what i heard was that the 1125s turn into pumpkins at midnight. And also they sneak out of garages in the middle of the night and make subprime loans. At least, that's what i heard at the bingo parlor. | ||
| Nobuell |
One of my worst fears - Spontaneous Human Combustion  | ||
| Davegess |
What I heard is that riders of 1125R's are thought so as so hot by memebers of the opposite sex thaty they never have time to ride, they are always being draged into the bushes and ravaged. | ||
| Brumbear |
nah Dave thats the axe body spray.  | ||
| X5thxgearxfreak |
1125s look like lobsters. Beady little eyes(refering to the headlight) and the two huge cowlings look like claws, especially when its a red one. I want the 1125 bars on my xb12scg, anyone got a set they want to be rid of? or some Firebolt clipons? | ||
| Panhead_dan |
I have one clip on I would part with | ||
| Rkc00 |
I have a set of clubmans off my CR with all cables and lines to sell. Mike Long Island, NY 09 XB12X Red/Black 09 1125CR Black/White 06 VRSCR Blue/Silver | ||
| Newxb12ss |
Once upon a time.......Erik Buell gave a brief explanation in H-D literature that explained the collaboration between Buell and Rotax for coming up with the Helicon design. Buell design staff knew what they wanted and had pretty close concepts for how to get it. Rotax had the vast engine building know-how of exactly what it takes to build such a power plant before they spend huge money and eat lots of months in "trial and error" R&D. |
