| Author | Message | ||
     Bromanowski |
I'm rebuilding from an accident and need to replace a lot of bolts so I was thinking about getting a stainless fastener kit. I know Trojan Horse has one (http://www.trojan-horse.co.uk/prods/295.html) and they are a sponsor which is a bonus but does anyone in the US have one? I'd rather but it stateside. Also does anyone have experience with them? good/bad? | ||
| Pogue_mahone |
just fyi-- stainless does not mean stronger either.i'd go with the standard grades of whatever the bike came with.grade 8 for example in stainless can get costly.and for what gain? the bolts are very important to be strong and stay attached. | ||
| Bromanowski |
I know they're not as strong but my bike lives outside 3 seasons and I work right on the ocean so I'm looking for the corrosion resistance. | ||
| Mmcn49 |
Brian, PM sent. | ||
| Delta_one |
have you thought of zinc coated hardware? "galvanized" is fairly corrosion resistant. but I have all stock hardware and ride in the rain and all sorts of wet weather and dont have any hardware rust. only a little pitting on the aluminum hardware for my fat bar riser | ||
| Nik |
Most of the stock hardware is stainless. | ||
| Bromanowski |
Well my idea was that quite a few bolts broke in my accident and I have to replace them anyways so why not go stainless. I mean my bike is literally feet away from the Atlantic Ocean when I'm at work. Does anyone make a zinc coated kit? From prior experience zinc coatings do not end up lasting that long though. | ||
| Nobuell |
Most stainless fasteners commonly available are 18-8 stainless steel and would be roughly equivalent to Grade 1 or 2. Most hex socket or Torx screws are high strength alloy steel and are roughly equivalent to Grade 8. If the screw threads into aluminum like in many motor applications or other low structure applications, stainless steel would work just fine since the aluminum is the weaker component. You can buy them from the hardware store. Primary structural fasteners should be replaced with the correct grade alloy steel if the original is an alloy steel fastener. Most alloy steel socket cap screws are Black Oxide finished which is basically the result of hardening. They are not very corrosion resistant. Some sizes can be found Zinc Plated. You may try Mcmaster Carr on line. They have a wide selection of stainless and alloy steel fasteners readily available at reasonable prices. | ||
| Mmcn49 |
The stainless fasteners in the link in the PM I sent are Grade 3. | ||
| Bromanowski |
Thanks Mike, I'm sold. Going for the set made here in the good old US of A. I'll post up some pics and thoughts as I get into the installation. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
what's the link? | ||
| Mmcn49 |
Jason, PM sent. | ||
| Greg_e |
Are these the correct shoulder bolts for the fairings, or just a regular shoulder bolt? It would be nice to be able to get the T27 bolts with the correct size head for the plastics. I know American Sport Bike has them, but a $2 or $3 each (can't remember) it would be nice to be able to buy them at like $1 or less each. I'd give up the T27 for a regular hex (allen) or even phillips or cross drive. | ||
| Bromanowski |
The kit got delivered to the garage today but I won't be up there until tomorrow so I'll check then and let you know. I'm assuming they are the same cap screw but just in stainless. | ||
| Mmcn49 |
Greg, PM sent. Why don't you ask him. | ||
| Nillaice |
be careful with stainless fastener in aluminum threads. ya know that -snap- sound when you break an OEM bolt loose from the threads, well stainless has an afinity for aluminum and practically welds it self in there. learned that one the hard way on a header stud. i thought stainless would be an upgrade... now i own a jims tool | ||
| Trexaroni |
Definately use some anti-seeze when installing the fasteners. I have built and repaired many boat lifts and jet ski lifts and they are aluminum with stainless and zinc coated fasteners. The anti-seeze will save you time and money later | ||
| Bromanowski |
Oh yeah header studs no matter what you should be using anti-seize just like spark plugs. I'm just curious what to do with things that are supposed to have thread locker on them. I believe the OEM handlebar clamps use stainless bolts and it calls for thread locker. It just sounds like a recipe for pain later. | ||
| Mmcn49 |
Aluminum followed by stainless are the two worst materials for galling or friction welding. Thread lubricants such as never or anti-seize do an excellent job of protecting threads from galling, (Use an aluminum or nickel based anti-seize on aluminum. Never use copper based anti-seize on aluminum). Starting with clean threads and assembling the fastener slowly also helps, (chase the female aluminum threads with a tap before assembly). While in its liquid state, blue thread locker will act as a lubricant. Removing the fastener years later may or may not be difficult. It is fairly easy to over torque and strip aluminum threads using anti-seize. Friction is reduced so much that it is somewhat difficult to know when the bolt is tight. If you use a torque wrench and torque to spec, you run the risk of stripping the threads. Here’s a suggestion: LOCTITE® 567™ is designed for the locking and sealing of metal tapered threads and fittings. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces and prevents loosening and leakage from shock and vibration. The high lubricating properties of this compound prevent galling on stainless steel, aluminum and all other metal pipe threads and fittings. http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/567-EN.PDF This stuff is designed as a pipe thread sealant, but it is also a thread locker. It is semi-hardening and does not set up rock hard like the Blue Thread Locker. It reduces friction, but not as much as anti-seize. Disassembly years later is not an issue. | ||
| Bromanowski |
Wow thanks Mike! Very helpful. Going to go out and buy some 567 tonight now so I can start putting everything together this weekend. | ||
| Buewulf |
+1 on the Loctite 567. Good stuff. It's just too easy to over-torque using anti-seize. | ||
| Greg_e |
I have had many import cars that seem to use a latex like white liquid for locking threads and preventing galling (Mazda RX7 comes to mind first). Seemed to work exceptionally well on that car but I'm not sure exactly what the stuff really was. It did dry to a white rubbery film after removing the bolt and the car was old enough that anything that would dry in the air should have turned to dry long ago, but everything was liquid when first removed. Eventually went to the scrapper for lack on money to fix a dead EFI system. | ||
| Blake |
"If the screw threads into aluminum like in many motor applications or other low structure applications, stainless steel would work just fine since the aluminum is the weaker component." Not necessarily. Female threads are inherently stronger than the male threads of the bolt/screw. | ||
| Bromanowski |
Well the kit came. Very well put together, everything in labeled bags with fasteners and washers put together. Everything is just hex head, no TORX. I think this is a plus cause I feel TORX will strip out easier. Not sure if they are SAE or Metric either. I haven't had a chance to put any in yet as I'm waiting on some Loctite 567. For anyone interested I got all the proper Loctite's that the service manual calls for (222, 242, 243, 262, and 272) plus the 567 from weldwarehouse.com for under $90. all 10ml bottles except for the 272 and 567 which I got 50ml.  | ||
| Greg_e |
I don't see any fasteners for the body work. | ||
| Bromanowski |
I'll go through and list everything tomorrow night or Thurs. morning. They didn't have as large of heads as the OEM fasteners and came with stainless washers instead of plastic. I'm going to replace all of the plastic washers with new ones and use them. | ||
| Greg_e |
The wide shoulder is important too, as is the plastic washer when you are mashing down on the plastic body pieces. The large head spreads out the load across the plastic making it less likely to break. They don't use those stock fasteners just because they like the looks of the large heads. I've switched a bunch of stuff to conventional fasteners on previous bikes, the result is never as good as the special stock fasteners. That said it's your bike. I was interested in mainly the body fasteners to try and find a source that was cheaper than $2 to $3 each. | ||
| Nobuell |
"Not necessarily. Female threads are inherently stronger than the male threads of the bolt/screw" Blake, You are correct. The internal thread stripping stress area (ASs) is approximately 30% greater than the external thread (ASn) assuming equal engagment for a typical 1/4" screw. However, the Fy of cast aluminum (7-13 ksi) is approximately 1/3 that of stainless Steel (32 ksi min). The aluminum threads will fail first assuming there is no defect in the Stainless Steel screw. Simple shear load. | ||
| Nobuell |
Aluminum followed by stainless are the two worst materials for galling or friction welding. Mmcn49 This is mainly true for Stainless/Stainless or Aluminum/Aluminum due to the self generating oxide film and the similar hardness (same alloy). I have not seen a galling problem when aluminum internal threads and 18-8 screws due to the dissimilar alloys. We always utilize anti-seize for similar alloys/hardness but have not been required with dissimilar. Have you had problems with aluminum to stainless? | ||
| Mmcn49 |
Yes, on 16, (1”) female aluminum NPT threads and 304 SS NPT male fittings. A customer attempted to install one of our high flow fuel management systems into his boat’s diesel fuel lines without using any type of thread sealant. He didn’t even use Teflon tape. When he opened the fuel valves and started his engine the forward sensor assembly connections wept and dribbled. There was a heavy drip, almost a stream coming from the return sensor assembly connections. When we got the equipment back the aluminum threads were totally buggered up. As he assembled the fittings he felt that they were tightening to soon so he finished the job with a couple of 15” crescent wrenches just to make sure they were tight. We’ve also had problems with customers using thread sealant that sets up rock hard. Initially everything worked fine until he replaced his fuel lines. He removed the sensor assembly fittings but didn’t clean or chase the threads before reassembly. Again this system leaked at startup and when the sensors were returned the aluminum threads were galled. NPT threads are tapered and generate more friction as they tighten than straight threads. We’ve had other similar problems over the years and about 7 or 8 years ago started providing a tube of Loctite 567 with every diesel system kit. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
any updates? | ||
| Bromanowski |
I've been out of town and I only get to work on the bike on Weekends so I haven't had a chance to touch it. I'm going to be doing some painting on my DIY tail chop and side rails tomorrow but Saturday I'll get to put some of these in. I got all of the loctite for everything now though. I have a nice big tube of 567 so I'm ready to put it in. I'll let you all know Sunday probably. |
