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Kdogshirow
Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 08:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I have been battling a surging problem on my 07XB9R for months . I just thought I would share my recent success . (I am sure the topic has been covered before in this forum)
My bike has a Jardine can , Race ECM and K&N filter . I have an ECM Spy and I payed someone to build me a Fuel map , because since I modified the bike , it had a surging problem between 2000to3500 rpm . Even after the new maps were loaded it still had a surging that drove me nuts ! I tried changing the timing and with it retarded , it helped , but it was a dog .
Then someone from this forum started helping me and explained some ECM Spy principals to me . He told me to disable my O2 sensor with ECM Spy . I did that , and that fixed all the surging problems . The bike runs fantastic now !
The ECM Spy manual says to disable the O2 sensor only if tuning on a dyno , and then when done tuning , enable it . Kind of misleading .
The person I payed to make the fuel maps , never told me to disable the O2 sensor . If it were not for the nice guy on this forum helping me , I would still be struggling with this problem .
So if you are having a similar problem with surging , try disabling the O2 sensor . It does not effect the bike in a negative way unless you are riding through big altitude changes .

(Message edited by kdogshirow on September 09, 2009)

(Message edited by kdogshirow on September 09, 2009)
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Tpoppa
Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 09:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I'm sure that others will chime in, but the 02 sensor does more than just adjust for changes in altitude. Without it, the ECM won't be able to learn or adjust to changes in ambient temp.

Surging is normally due to uneven combustion. Not usually an issue with a 9.
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Kdogshirow
Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 11:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Yes , I welcome all comments about this subject , as I am no expert , and only know what I have been told and what I have read . Please comment anyone who has done this and their experience with it .
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Froggy
Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 11:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

You didn't fix the problem, you basically did the equivalent to putting black tape over the check engine light that stays on.

Do some datalogging, see what the AFV does when you are having your issues.
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Kdogshirow
Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 11:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

HaHa , thats funny . Do you know there are alot of other bikes (Jap) out there you disconnect the O2 sensor when doing modifications to them ? It was not to many years ago they did not have O2 sensors on the Fuel Injected bikes and they ran fine . I personally think its on there to help with emissions , to lean them down . But like I said I am no expert .
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Yardsale
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 01:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

You didn't fix the problem
+1

the oxygen sensor is simply the indicator to your ecm on the air/fuel mixture being burned when in closed loop operation. when it senses a rich mix the ecm reduces fuel delivery and vice versa. if you were/are able to read live data you would see the switch between rich and lean alternate continuously at a regular and frequent time interval. (for a proper working system)

by disabling the O2 sensor the ecm essentially goes back to open loop status where it uses pre-programmed fuel mapping instead of using O2 data to self-adjust and since there is no air flow sensor on the intake side of this system it is difficult for the ecm to self-test and detect abnormal data from your O2 sensor. what that means is that you could have a malfunctioning O2 sensor without throwing codes.

if it runs better without the O2 my first guess would be that you have a bad sensor. if thats not the fault i would then look for any reason why your sensor would be sending improper data such as an exhaust leak upstream from your O2 causing a false lean reading or even carbon build up on the sensor tip from a previous rich condition.
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Kdogshirow
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 02:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Well it could be a bad sensor , I have no exhaust leaks , I checked that . Michael Cobb did the maps for me , so I would think they are right .
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Kaveman
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 08:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

If you hook a scope to the O2 sensor(while the bike is running at idle of course) you will see it oscillate in a sine wave function. This is the signal of the exhaust gases being produced(and analyzed) and it is trying to get the ECM to stoichometric. This signal is needed at the ECM, so it knows the amount of fuel required for the conditions. If you disable the O2 sensor, you just let the ECM run in open loop and no fuel burn info is sent to adjust the stoich.
Too lean and the bike will run very hot, to rich and you'll be buying plugs and making more pollution than necessary
Sounds to me that your sensor is "lagging" or not sending the signal correctly. I think the term is "hunting".
Just my $.02 on the topic.
Kaveman
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Tpoppa
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 08:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Do you know there are alot of other bikes (Jap) out there you disconnect the O2 sensor when doing modifications to them ? It was not to many years ago they did not have O2 sensors on the Fuel Injected bikes and they ran fine .

True, but those ECMs are designed to work without an O2 sensor, yours wasn't.
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Kdogshirow
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 10:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Type in on google "disable O2 sensor on sportbikes" and you will read how many tuners disable the O2 sensor , not to mention how many after market pipes and race pipes come without O2 bungs . Even the D&D web site says how some tuners disable sensors on Harleys , and the O2 sensors were put on for the California market originally for emissions . I am not really interested in emissions or fuel economy . And I dont drive a Prius .
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Andymnelson
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 10:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

bandaid on a broken leg. you may have covered up the problem, but you sure didn't fix it. I too am betting that you have a bad sensor. they're pretty cheap (someone else chime in here- I haven't had to buy one for my XB, but for my X1 it was like $18 at autozone), so i'd say it's worth checking.
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Kdogshirow
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 01:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I will check into that .
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Iamarchangel
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 04:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

World War 1 airplanes fought in combat using less sophisticated engines than current lawn mowers. That doesn't mean tech should go backwards.

If canceling the O2 sensor did the trick, then the best solution is to put a new sensor in.

There's wisdom in the technobabble already posted, trust it.
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Moosestang
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 06:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

True, but those ECMs are designed to work without an O2 sensor, yours wasn't.

How do bikes that come from the factory with o2 sensors have an ecm that is designed to work without them? I bet their ecm works very similar to yours. The ducati streetfighter uses a closed and open loop program and they disable the 02's on those with aftermarket pipes as well.
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Kdogshirow
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 06:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

You are correct Moosetang . Also the Suzuki TLR1000 Superbike , V twin also . I am learning , it is nothing new .
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