| Author |
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 05:58 pm: | 
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Wyked, whilst all that may be true it is not a fact stated by the manufacturer of the XB. IF frame polishing is possibly dangerous on an XB then I would expect it to be stated clearly like "WARNING: DO NOT POLISH". But our discussion is in relation to warranty and I don't hear anyone telling what Buell's written stance is on this matter.
Incidentally, how thin is the XB frame? Thinner than your average Japanese beam frame?
Rocket |
Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 06:09 pm: |
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There probably isn't a specific line in the Buell warrenty that says in so many words "Warning: Do Not Polish Your Frame". However all the manufacturers have a line of coverage in their warrenties about "Owner changes and modifications". And Polishing your frame is an owner modification.
As to how thick the aluminum is in the frame I don't know. However the "tink tink" tap test on a nearly empty frame sounds as thick as the aluminum frame on my Ninja. |
Gonen60
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 07:32 pm: |
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If you must have that show bike Look...Dip that sucker in chrome !!! |
Bomber
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 11:10 am: |
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Rocket -- good to know you're an expert on polishing as well . . . .I'll forward my technical questions on polishing metals (shop madde parts, knife blades both hardended and pre-hardened, et al) to you in the future to avoid bothering my suppliers . . ..
the things you can learn here ;-} |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 06:20 pm: |
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Bomber, I never claimed to be an expert on anything but I'm well versed in legal matters regarding the motor trade. I run a business in the damned industry and I served my time on motorcycles, not cars, and having worked at management level for several motorcycle dealers I have a modicum of interest in warranty issues and their legal ends. To this day I am sometimes involved in such matters and I have some experience with HD \ Buell warranty claims, having had enough of them myself, first hand and via lawyers. And yes I've stood in front of the district judge in such matters and I can tell you without doubt that the manufacturer has a long way to go to secure their arse in the event of a customer bringing a claim against them. Customer is king.
You mention learning. I too like learning and I'm interested in learning why polishing an XB frame, or polishing a Japanese motorcycles beam frame for that matter, might void a warranty claim on said motorcycle.
You can talk all you want of heat and stress but no one yet has explained why, as a Buell dealer has suggested here, that disassembling an XB motorcycle voids its warranty whether done by a dealer or not. In the case of the dealer that's just plain bull shit. I know that and so do you. As for polishing the frame, that may well be covered by "owner modification" in the event of a warranty claim where the dealer can refuse liability, BUT NO ONE HAS YET POSTED THAT INFORMATION based on FACT. Meanwhile polishing your frame is most unlikely to promote any kind of failure or stress BUT if it is known the XB's frames are more susceptible toward failure through polishing then it should be clearly stated in the terms of the warranty, and more so in the interest of safety. I'd have thought this issue more important given an XB is EXACTLY the sort of motorcycle its owner is likely to modify in this manner given Buells streetfighter image.
Whilst I appreciate, as I'm sure others do, the efforts of some to alert all to safety issues, perhaps they'd best do it in a manner that doesn't suppose they know for certain whether polishing an XB frame will void its warranty, or worse, lead to frame failure, unless of course they have the FACTS, because if they don't they might well be pissing on someones bonfire. In any case, you think if polishing an XB frame were dangerous, Buell wouldn't put a WARNING on it to cover their arse? That's all.
Rocket |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 06:27 pm: |
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So long as the welds arent ground down, the only thing I think could possibly be damages thru excessive heat due to improper polishing, might be the inner liner. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 06:32 pm: |
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It's common sense... You heat a "roving" one square inch section of a "thin" piece of aluminum you are going to create stresses in VERY strange directions. It's a bad idea. If you want shiny, go dip it in chrome or find a way to polish it w/o the heat and kiss your warranty goodbye (or maybe take a bunch of pictures of it being polished in the manner you choose that doesn't create the heat??).
My 2c. |
Smitty
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 08:28 pm: |
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Rocket
Perhaps this way they are making it clear any change in the bike after it leaves the factory they cannot guarantee the proper torque to all fasteners and quality of same. Just trying to discourage modifications that might compromise design specs to safety. Also in a court things become subjective depending whom is doing the talking. Tim
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 08:56 pm: |
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Maybe you're right Smitty, but who are 'they' and where have 'they' written it down?
Rocket |
Smitty
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 09:17 pm: |
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Good question for the attorney in front of a judge.
The mfg. may claim it is implied.
Answer: Judgement plaintiff.
edited by smitty on March 08, 2004 |
Ronlv
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 10:58 am: |
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how about jet hot coating the frame? |
Misato
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 11:05 am: |
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it doesnt get any hotter than when riding for a few hours on a hot day thats for sure, but yeah I guess it wouldn't be a 'uniform' heat when polishing. anyway, I'm still going to polish if I ever get my bike back from waiting for FORCE(5-6 months now, I forget- do I still have a bike?)
and I got about 3 days left on the warranty so  |
Gonen60
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 11:12 am: |
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Misato...
that is unreal you are still dealing with the whole exhaust pipe issue. I think I would have ask for a refund, and moved on with a differant pipe.
good luck !!! |
Bomber
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 12:49 pm: |
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I am certain that many here are far more expert than I on vehicular warrenties . . . . I posited a cause for a prohibition against polishing a frame . .. it may or may not be accurate . . .
frankly, barracks-lawyering holds little interest for me (though I recognize others may bfeel differently, and are welcome to it), but less . . . .
ah never mind . .. . polish/plate/chrome away, understanding that your dealer is the best source of warranty information, and that this information may change . . .. . that sucks, no doubt and no argument, but it's the case nonetheless |
Noface
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:54 am: |
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Everyone keeps mentioning heating the frame from polishing. Now I wanna know who the hell would hold a grinder on that frame long enough to get it as hot as that wicked ass VTWIN that's wedged between those frame rails?
I've polished some aluminum in my day. If you get it hotter than the motor does, than your doing it wrong. Way wrong.
Damage inner liner. Bullshit. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 04:42 am: |
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Sense at last. Buy that man a pint!!
Rocket |
Misato
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 11:10 am: |
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Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 01:30 pm: |
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Noface,
How hot does the frame get due to just the heat coming off the motor? I'm not disputing, just wondering if/how you know. This aluminum you were polishing. Was it a casting, a forging, sheet metal? How deep did the polishing need to penetrate to achieve a shiny finish? And how do you know the peak temperatures it reached and that they are beneath concern? Keep in mind that aluminum dissipates heat VERY quickly. What alloy comprises the frame, and if it is strengthened through heat treatment, at what temperature will it begin to lose temper?
Personally, speaking as a structural/mechanical analyst, I don't know whether or not careful polishing could jeopardize the integrity of the frame and/or its fuel cell liner. My only caution thus far has been in regards to grinding of welds.
I suspect that you are partly correct, that if done carefully and properly, polishing the frame may be done with no ill effects. I also suspect that if done incorrectly and/or too aggressively that polishing could easily have detrimental effects on the structural integrity of the frame and/or the fuel cell's liner. But then, as you say, such polishing would have to be done wrongly, way wrongly for that to happen.
The other issue wrt warranty... if you or anyone polishes your frame and it subsequently develops problems, don't expect it to be covered by warranty. |
Captainplanet
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 03:09 pm: |
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Misato,
You will find the frame way easier to polish than than the swingarm. The frame is pretty smooth under the paint.
No Face,
Exactly what I have been saying. You don't have to put much heat in to polish the frame. The vast majority of mine was done with wet sanding. Only the final polish created any discernable heat at all. What I can tell you is that in the summer in Austin, while riding the bike, the frame gets hot enough to burn you skin. It never appeared to get that hot during the polish.
As far as the warranty goes, I am no longer willing to let a dealer touch my bike anyway, so its not an issue for me. |
Misato
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 03:39 pm: |
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yeah, the swing arm was nasty under that powder coat, had to break out the 80g.
the frame I am going to chemical strip it, then start with as fine of grit I can get away with, not going to touch the welds much...
I had the service guy call corperate and they told him the inner liner would be fine. |
Captainplanet
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 03:46 pm: |
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I didn't use chemical striper on my frame since I did mine on the bike. I was too worried that nasty stuff would get on some plastic or other painted surface that I didn't want it to. I started by sanding the paint off the frame with a 220 grit. That was more than sufficient to get it smooth. The swingarm was a bitch. The welds on the frame actually look pretty good polished with the ripples in them. The weld polishes very easily. |
Misato
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 04:41 pm: |
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yeah, personally I like the welds. |
Soundman
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 05:36 pm: |
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Hey gang,
Im no expert, but I did work in a garage for a few years. I did my share of port matching and polishing heads, i'm no artist by any means. I do know that by polishing metal,"Within Reason", you decrease or remove stress risers, thus lessening the chance of cracking.
Would'nt all metals be stronger if it is polished?
and if so, would'nt polishing your frame make it mo' bettah
Again, i'm no expert, just asking.
Soundman....... |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 05:23 am: |
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>>>>I do know that by polishing metal,"Within Reason", you decrease or remove stress risers, thus lessening the chance of cracking.
Would'nt all metals be stronger if it is polished?
You are getting DANGEROUSLY close to the reason may racing organization do not allow polished frames. |
Road_thing
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 06:08 am: |
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man, you're up early... |
Hardluckxb
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 06:30 am: |
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im still up! |
Soundman
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 09:19 am: |
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Hey Court,
"dangerously close to the reason..."
I cant read between the lines. More info please bro...I'm curious.
Thanks
Soundman.... |
Davegess
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 09:45 am: |
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Sound, any frame will crack if subjected to enough stress. Where it cracks can be controlled by putting the stresses in the proper places. The stress risers that are removed when polishing may be there on purpose. Making area A stronger may over load area B with catastropic results. A cracked frame tube would be bad a cracked steering head tube could be worse.
Cars are way ahead of bike in terms of crashability and not just because you sit in them. A modern car is a wonder of contolled collapsing. On bikes we really haven't figured out what might help, witness the gooofy leg protectors the Brits tried to force upon us.
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Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:05 am: |
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I've moved stress risers around by making and installing frame gussets (in the bad old days . . . in the 60s and 70s, it was hard NOT to imprvoe things in almost any area of motorcycling) . . . this work almost always lead to a more ridgid frame and better handling . . when it didn't, it lead to frame failure in the most unexpected places . . .
I've learned what I did since then, and it's understandable, but it did lead to a number of interesting late night garage sessions . . ..
"how the hell did you break the frame THERE?"
"dunno . . .. . . (sharp intake of breath) . . . 'ear, have some more of this and help me weld another gusset, I gotta leave in an hour for Sante Fe . . . . . " |
Soundman
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:06 am: |
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Thanks Dave,
I think we are talking about "crumple zone" technology- or actually designing flex into an application instead of rigidity. I read an article about how the new Honda GP bike was engineered with some frame flex in it because the riders were complaining how stiff a previous version was. The suspension alone was not enough. Old thinking was- the stiffer the better-. Your comment on (removing metal from point A loads pointB) makes sense, I should of thought of it that way.
Thanks
Soundman |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:15 pm: |
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A "stress riser" is merely an effect of discontinuous geometry in a structural member/component. Put a notch in a tension rod or a hole in a beam, you'll have yourself a "stress riser" or as I prefer to say a "stress concentration". The peak stress around such a discontinuity is significantly elevated over the surrounding stress field in the continuous portions of the affected member. |
Soundman
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:42 pm: |
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Blake,
That is what I was asking about. Any flaw in the metal caused by bad casting, inconsitent extrusion in said metal will be a point where the metal will be stressed - metal composition in rough VS. smooth being equal. For instance, why polish connecting rods in racing engines. Because smoothing the as cast finish on the walls of the rods will even out the texture of the wall and lessens the stress subjected to one particular area.
However, I do dig the point that if a intended reinforcement / collapse vein is altered, than mahem can ensue.
Or I could just be full of sh!t.
Thanks,
Soundman.... |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 05:32 pm: |
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>>>>"how the hell did you break the frame THERE?"
Dave G....recall the day the red head did the "demo turned stunt" for the Showa reps at the old AMC test track?
To this date, that stands as the single most definitive and laughable tribute to Abe's talent with FEA.
It broke not only NEAR where he predicted, but like on the "watch out for this area" line.
Note to whiners....nothing in this conversation should be construed as indicating your Buell is unsafe at any speed.....the problem here involved a nasty combination of testing, altitude (not necessarily intended to be of the magnitude it was), a skilled test rider, a group of visiting VIP's eager to see their new suspension put through it's paces, a test structural component and, to the chagrin of Mr. EFB a very spiffy NEW borrowed helmet.....
Helmet and rider came through with shining colors. Asian visitors scrambled to get their name on the list to visit the next demo by "wild and crazy American test riders".
Yep...right ON the line.
Remind me to tell you this one sometime..... |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 09:26 pm: |
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Except now you are blinding some by referring to steel tube frames NOT beam alloy frames.
One more thing Buell god. The only whiners in this thread are those that have recommended AGAINST polishing an XB frame, YOU INCLUDED.
Rocket |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:31 pm: |
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Until just then. 
You have issues. Apparently you are in love with Court but he scorned you. tsk tsk tsk... Get over it. There'll be another. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 06:33 am: |
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Court scorned me? Yes he did - he let himself down badly 
Rocket |
Noface
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 10:34 am: |
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Blake, sorry so long for the reply, just ain't been back since.
My 9R gets the frame pretty dern hot in the summer time. hot enough that if you were wearing shorts you'd have a hard time. And that's on the outside of the frame spars. I can't imagine how hot the inside gets that's right next to the motor, but I'd bet it's a hell of a lot hotter than the outside.
What I'm implying is that the heat generated for a die grinder, polisher whatever, is not going to generate enough heat to impact the inner lining (coating). Now hold the fooker in one spot and let her grind a big huge ditch in it, yea, it might get hot in that spot, but oh, btw, you just ruined your frame...
I've polished cast and forged aluminums. I ain't gonna claim to know anything about metalurgy, I'm an electrician by trade, I've just had some opportunities for government work from time to time. When I need it, I know the right people to go to.
Just use some common sense. An engine lives between those frame spars. Joe Rider polishing his frame ain't gonna get it hotter than that engine does. |
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