| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat |
Has anyone done this to an XB? Is it possible? Is it worth it? Will a dry clutch last? For an upgrade path I am looking at suspension work first, then reducing rotational mass and then an 88" Nallin rebuild (with a lightened flywheel). | ||
| Mikej |
One first has to ask why? Check with the atypical suppliers (I'd post a few links but I'd get a rock thrown at me) for open primary Sportster stuff. If it isn't possible now with the newer engine, it will be soon. The aftermarket is very active, make that extremely active, in coming up with new stuff for the new Sportster line. And the numerous "chopper" shows on TV and spoken of daily on the radio are only adding to the fadish fever. Again, I ask why? There are other options to reduce loss in the primary. | ||
| M1combat |
Like what options? Ceramic bearings? I may do that too, but not until I send it to Aaron. The belt has less inertia so should allow the engine to rev a little quicker and I wouldn't need to adjust it. Also, I don't want an "open" primary... Just a belt instead of a chain. I would keep the primary closed. I will probably switch to one of those lightweight front secondary pullies as well and make sure to get lightweight primary pullies. After that, it's all about 88" and I'll probably talk to Aaron about which pullies he feels will take the abuse. At this point I'm just gathering info though as I won't be started until after I do some bodywork on my Mach1 and rebuild the original Cleveland 2V in it. | ||
| Mikej |
One thing you'll have to deal with is belt tension/slack/slop. I'm out of touch with what the newer builders do to get rid of the teflon shoe setup. And I personally am not entirely sold on the ceramic bearings for road use. Might be fine on a track with regular teardowns between every few races, but on the street with thousands of miles between inspections and I'd be a little leary. Probably just my exposure to ceramics in other venues apart from motorcycles, but once the surface goes they get abrasive real fast. Might be just fine, I'll let an expert with real world experience speak to that issue. Head down to your local speed shop and tell them you're looking to run a dry clutch and belt setup on an XL based bike and see what catalogs they have under the counter. | ||
| Mikej |
M1, You'll have email shortly with a few links that I've looked at in the past for a side background longterm project. MikeJ. | ||
| Blake |
Mike, PLEASE feel free to post links to any suppliers of primary belt drive kits. Surely you can see the difference in relevance wrt sponsor support between an exotic product like that and a standard OEM Buell part? If we stop posting links about stuff like that, BadWeB loses, hugely. The only person you need to worry about throwing rocks at you wrt this issue is me. I don't recall doing that, so please, enough with the mumbled grumbling malcontent okay? That is not like you. You sure seem grumpily out of sorts lately. Anything I can do to cheer you up? A trip to Texas for some Spring riding maybe?  | ||
| Mikej |
Might take you up on the TX riding, might be planning a trip to the southernmost portions of the Lone Star State this summer. Sort of grumpy for a variety of reason, some related some not to the site and stuff here, blame it on cabin fever and educationitis and graduation delays and work issues and more if you want the long list. Sorry. But kind of hard to know what's allowed and what isn't with some site sponsors being retail and others being manufacturing. I mean, would it be proper to post links to a new muffler concept I've come up with if it hits production if'n I find a fabber if it will directly compete with the Drummer of Bubba fame? For instance and fer examples let's say. These are fine and dangerously thin lines at times in this mine field we call the internet. But anyway I digress and I type too much. I'll post the links that I sent via email and see if any of them are gray zone and if any are clear. On the rock throwing, thought I felt a little gravel hit my face shield on the other thread, but might have been just overspray or tire debris, my mistake and misinterpretation if it was. From the email: ===== I've heard of these from various people, and have looked into them a little in the past, but all my info is second hand so use your own best judgement. Mike. http://www.karata.com/primary.htm http://www.stddevelopment.com/Sportster.HTM http://www.bakerdrivetrain.com/sportstersixspeed.asp http://www.heavydutycycles.com/sporthis2.htm http://www.banditmachineworks.com/applications.htm http://www.sscycle.com/index2.asp http://www.sscycle.com/catalog/xl/longblocksv2.pdf http://www.sscycle.com/catalog/xl/crankcases/css/crankcases_1.htm http://www.sscycle.com/catalog/catalog%2014/sec6cat14/css/sec6cat14_17.htm http://www.sscycle.com/catalog/catalog%2014/sec6cat14/css/sec6cat14_18.htm Hope these help a little. ===== Again, these are just some info sources I've found in the past where I've gleaned a little info on a background project I've been scratching my mind over for a bit. Not all address the issue directly, but do have nippits of info to be applied to the whole project. | ||
| Buelliedan |
Mike, You know I live in San Antonio, TX right??  | ||
| Mikej |
Yeah, but seeings as how I've never been to Texas I'm probably in for a huge surprise as to how far one place is from another. I guess it'd be unreasonable to try and hit Corpus Christi for breakfast, Dallas for lunch, Houston for dinner, and be down around Brownsville before bedtime.  | ||
| Buelliedan |
Mike, If you could pull that off I believe you would get put into the Iron Butt Riders Hall of fame!! Where in Texas do you plan on visiting? | ||
| Mikej |
Will be in a car and will have a co-driver. Destination is around Brownsville, and from what I've been told that is about as far south in Texas as you can go without a boat. Trip not confirmed yet though. If you make it up here for the Coming Home deal I may corner you with a map atlas for trip suggestions. | ||
| Court |
>>>Destination is around Brownsville, and from what I've been told that is about as far south in Texas as you can go without a boat. Ahhh....The Rio Grande Valley...my stomping grounds. It is as far south as you can go...any further you are in Matamoras. Watch for the giant golf ball (trust me, you'll know it when you see it) and wave as you pass 16 Pizarro (it sits on the first fairway at Rancho Viejo). Court | ||
| Fullpower |
M1 hate to drag a good converstion back to the original point, but why ever would you want to use a dry clutch, and/or replace the primary chain, which in my experience is THE toughest, most durable moving part on the entire bike. what tremendous motor work do you have planned which might overwhelm the clutch? | ||
| Dynarider |
#1. I think the rattle from a dry clutch sounds like shit. #2. On the Buell & sporties the primary shares oil with the tranny. You would have to block off the trans & figure out a way to fill it. I have only ever seen 1 sporty with a belt drive. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
He is looking to lower rotational mass to get a quicker rev/acceleration. My thinking is he sees it as easier to switch to a dry clutch since he wants to switch to a belt primary which doesn't need an oilbath so that too would cut down on parasitic drag. My personal thought is to maybe look into finding a billet clutch basket and stick with the way the primary is done. Mostly due to the shared oil with the trans. | ||
| Fullpower |
the issue of rotational mass on a sportster engine is very interesting. one could lower the angular momentum to a very much greater degree by using SMALLER DIAMETER flywheels. i use S&S flywheels ( 4-5/16 stroke) on an 89 inch sportster. the flywheels are 1/4 inch smaller in diameter, and an estimated 10 lbs lighter. the stroker motor revs quickly, still idles at 1000 rpm , but shakes a bit (DUH). still think the stock primary drive setup is real hard to beat. at least up into any amount of horsepower you can make on gasoline. i have a S&S G carburetor, with a .118 inch mainjet, and have run methanol on the street with the sportster. gets 8 miles per gallon, idles at 1500 rpm (barely) and gets 3rd gear wheelspin, unless the tire is good and hot. cant go far with 3 gallons of methanol, so switched back to gasoline. getting 45 miles per gallon with the stroker now. and easier to maintain traction. still no problems with the primary chain., barnett 9 plate clutch is holding up to tremendous abuse. | ||
| Mikej |
Blocking off and filling the tranny separate from the primary can be done, but it's easier with the trapdoor setup than it is with the hardside cases. Lighter flywheels properly machined, balanced, and with the properly setup wipers will do more than any gains with a belt drive. But belt drives have their own interesting points. There's also more that can be done with pistons and rods as well to reduce revable weights. Part art, part science, part experience, all fun if it works and doesn't break. Rode next to a panhead many years ago, shaved and scraped, would do about an 11- second 1/4 mile, idled for crap, but it was the money bike so nobody cared how it idled. Dyna, What sounds better, a dry clutch with loose springs or a loose wet primary chain? Court, I'll watch for the golf ball. And I've always wanted to wade halfway across the Rio Grande someday. But perhaps that isn't such a grand idea these days. | ||
| Jmartz |
I've always thought that if the primary area could be dried up (hard on a tube framer, easy on an XB and already done on S & S cases) you could then use an aluminum output shaft pulley and an aluminum clutch basket and a belt. All these parts would be lighter than the stock iron pieces and would allow for faster acceleration. There is at least one set-up for S & S cases that requires some milling of the primary cover. Boring some holes in it would be necessary for cooling anyway. | ||
| Jmartz |
In the area of engine configuration I have always wanted to experiment with a 3.5 stroke x 4.0 bore set-up. The flywheels cut near the OD with a ball mill to generate an "I" beam (rounded). This would reduce weight w/o making the windage features of the S & S cases inoperable as it happens with their "knife edge" wheels. In a Sportster engine this config. would displace about 90 in.3. With the new hollow valves Aaron is selling and tapered spring technology from NASCAR and some other carefully selected parts, the engine should be able to produce 150 RWHP and spin up to 8,000 rpm. | ||
| Brucelee |
I am still back on why? | ||
| Mikej |
Why not? | ||
| Benm2 |
There's a NASCAR company working on hollow titanium valves. Not just the stem, the whole valve. http://www.stealth-engineering.com They already make hollow-stem Ti valves. I haven't even checked, but I imagine that lots of cash would be required. If you wanted to take a gamble, you could replace the primary drive sprockets with aluminum parts. There are some high-strength wear-resistant alloys around that might work. Some engineering work would be required though. Might be easier than belt conversion. | ||
| M1combat |
I don't exactly need the 150HP, but the 8K RPM's sounds REALLY good  . I'm all about RPM's and getting them quickly. The main thing is that (like everyone else) I want an engine that's bullet proof. I'm willing to spend a couple hundred dollars a month to get there, I just need a plan. I figure I should start with "external" rotating mass first and once I get all that done, send the whole thing to Aaron and go for 88"'s. One of the hurdles I'll need to jump is the ECM but I'll probably just go to a carb. In the meantime I have a KLR to ride. I've pretty much decided to screw the factory warranty, but not until I have to. MikeJ - I checked into a couple of those sights. Thank you. I'll do some more research over the next few days. Fullpower - Another consideration for this engine will be vibration. I don't mind it myself, but I think that trading off vibration for lowered inertia in the crank might be a bad idea for my application. I guess I would have to get an idea of just how much extra vibration we are talking about though... ten lbs off the wheels sounds pretty damned attractive to me though. Jmarts - These tapered springs... They work a lot better than the alternatives I assume. What about rockers? S&S? In any case, thanks all for the info and keep it coming if there's more . | ||
| Jmartz |
I am told S&S has the lightest regular production rockers. I run Jim's in my bike but when I got them the S&S product was not out yet. To get quick spin the reciprocating assembly will need to be lightened and the stroke shortened. Slipper pistons, Ti rods and pins and reduced weight flywheels of shorter stroke. The HD engine stores a lot of energy in its mass, hence the quick delivery when the clutch is dropped (especially at lower rpm). When additional energy is subsequently demanded of the engine a significant amount of the carbon energy in the fuel is needed to spin up the engine in addition to the rest of the bike. This the reason these bikes perform so well at the bottom an so poorly in the top. | ||
| M1combat |
Jmartz - understood. I don't want to shorten the stroke though... Keep in mind I'm headed for 88" (or so). If I do shorten the stroke I'll then shoot for 1348cc's. I would like to go as over square as possible w/o loosing too much torque though so I may indeed do that. I hear that 3-13/16 is the limit to the bore with millennium jugs. I am guessing that when I get that kit from Nallin that I'll be able to upgrade to the Ti wrist pins. I'll probably do something with the rods as well. | ||
| M1combat |
Does the Buell 1203 engine see a good deal of flex at higher RPM's? I am asking because I have read that if you do get a good deal of flex in the bore/case, you should stay away from slipper pistons. I wish I could get some of those newfangled ducati piston rings in the right size though... | ||
| Jmartz |
Perhaps the worst hop-up is the use of heavier pistons and rods. This will not help in anyway to alter the rate at which you go faster. W/o a serious change of character in the engine acceleration gains are small. Torque gains will propel you faster initially but once you are going, a large portion of the fuel's energy gets used to spin the motor slowing surface gains. | ||
| M1combat |
But if you have made a serious change to the engine you would need the pistons and rods yes? Are the stock rods good for 130RWHP, stock stroke and a 3-13/16 bore? Keeping in mind I'd like to get to 8K RPM's occasionally... See, I don't have much experience with engines. I've done a good deal of reading/research and I know how they work and some of the theory behind making power. I also have an idea of what I want to get. I'm just not always sure what to do to get there and I'd hate to forget something... | ||
| Mikej |
You'll probably/definitely want to upgrade your rods. I saw a set last year where the main journals looked like a stretched oval. Find a good speed/performance shop with true racebike experience to see what they recommend. They'll probably recommend a little additional work on the rods once you get them prior to installation. | ||
| M1combat |
Mikej - You mean something like shot peening? I have no idea what that is, but I seem to remember it used WRT conrods once... |
