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Niceguyeddy
Posted on Monday, March 09, 2009 - 08:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Since it's readily available to me, should I be using it? Are there benefits over "regular" 92 octane?
Marcus
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Too_tall_ss
Posted on Monday, March 09, 2009 - 08:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Yeah, ethanol=bad, injectors don't like the stuff, it leaves carbon build up on them. 10% and less is ok, but if you live in states like Minnesota (Like I used to) They run 80/20, that stuff kills your motor. I only ran the non-oxy in my snowmobiles, if I put the reg in, it would be blue smoke all day, same for my 65 Mustang. So all and all, run it if you can ha ha.
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Saratoga
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 08:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

They're supposed to be going to an 80/20 mix in FL from what I've read. Great. Glad I have a diesel truck.

On top of it all, gas stations are "modernizing" by replacing their pumps with those that only have one hose for all 3 grades which is of no consequence in a car with a 20 gallon tank, but a bike that holds 4 gallons doesn't like the gallon or so of the cheap shit that's left in the hose from the last person.

-Rant off-
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Pkforbes87
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 11:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

For anyone who has access to a military base, all of the AAFES gas stations I've seen don't sell ethanol. Plus there's no sales tax
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Bikertrash05
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 01:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I ran the non-oxy stuff when I was in MN, and I got better mileage.
I really wish people would realize that using food for fuel is a bad idea.
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Froggy
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 02:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)


quote:

On top of it all, gas stations are "modernizing" by replacing their pumps with those that only have one hose for all 3 grades which is of no consequence in a car with a 20 gallon tank, but a bike that holds 4 gallons doesn't like the gallon or so of the cheap shit that's left in the hose from the last person.




Ft_bstrd busted this myth. He talked to a pump manufacturer and determined less than a quart would be in the hose. So your 4 gallon fillup of 93 will be 3.75 gallons of 93 and .25 gallons of whatever was in there before. That is 6.25% dilution. Given a 6 point difference in octane rating going from 93 to 87, your actual octane rating will be 92.9375. You got bigger things to worry about.
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Gazoobla
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 06:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I'm confused. Do the highest grades have less alcohol? Does higher octane help compensate for the alcohol it does have? I understand the other benefits.
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Froggy
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 06:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Ethanol content is the same regardless of grade.
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Pkforbes87
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 09:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

maybe this is getting too deep and doesn't need to be discussed.. but from what I've read, federal law states that a minimum percentage of all pump gasoline must be made up of oxygen. (2% I think?) The oxygen content is held within the gasoline by use of ethanol OR methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE).

Again - that's just my impression from what I've been reading. Anyone know if there's truth behind it?

And if the 2% oxygen content regulation is in fact in place, does that mean that non-ethanol gasoline contains MTBE? I can't find the source now, but I've also read before that MTBE can be very harmful if burned in an engine not designed for it.

Chances are I'm just digging too deep and it's one of those things that shouldn't be worried about! (like which motor oil to use)
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Froggy
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Lots of good info for you here. http://www.epa.gov/OTAQ/oxygenate.htm


quote:

does that mean that non-ethanol gasoline contains MTBE?




Yep.


quote:

but I've also read before that MTBE can be very harmful if burned in an engine not designed for it.




News to me, but I am not a expert on the subject.


quote:

Chances are I'm just digging too deep and it's one of those things that shouldn't be worried about!




Correct.
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Pkforbes87
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 10:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Used as anti-knocking agent
(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTBE)

In the US it (MTBE) has been used in gasoline at low levels since 1979 to replace tetra-ethyl lead to increase its octane rating and help prevent engine knocking. Oxygen helps gasoline burn more completely, reducing tailpipe emissions from pre-1984 motor vehicles. In more modern vehicles, the emissions reduction is negligible. In one respect, the oxygen dilutes or displaces gasoline components such as aromatics (e.g., benzene) and sulfur. In another, oxygen optimizes the oxidation during combustion. Most refiners have chosen to use MTBE over other oxygenates primarily for its blending characteristics and for economic reasons. It is produced from natural gas, which is less expensive than oil.

Since 1992, MTBE has been used at higher concentrations in some gasoline to fulfill the oxygenate requirements set by the United States Congress in Clean Air Act amendments.

Performance and Fuel Economy
(source: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/f99040.pdf)

EPA conducted a fleet testing program in 1998 to evaluate car and truck
performance with Phase II Reformulated Gasoline (RFG), compared to Phase I RFG. Testing took
place in Boston, Chicago, and Houston. The test fleet drove over one
million miles with Phase II RFG. Performance testing was also conducted
in 1998 with utility, lawn, and garden equipment, and with
motorcycles and marine engines. In addition, EPA sponsored fuel
economy testing with Phase II RFG, compared to Phase I RFG.
All available data indicate that no difference in car or truck performance
or fuel economy is expected when Phase II RFG replaces Phase I RFG.
In addition, no difference in performance is expected with utility, lawn,
and garden equipment, or with marine engines or motorcycles.

Oxygen Requirement
In the Clean Air Act, Congress specified that RFG contain oxygen —
two percent by weight. MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) and ethanol
are the two most commonly used substances that add oxygen to gasoline.
Oil companies decide which substance to use to meet the law’s
requirements.




Thanks for the reference Froggy. Looks like I was wrong about it being harmful.
I feel kinda out of the loop being a guy that was born 8 years after lead was taken out of gasoline. Oh well, at least I was around when Pluto was a planet.
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Microchop
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 02:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

MTBE is very likely to end up in ground water due to its water soluability, So I believe it has been banned here in CA, be cause it was detected in groundwater and is very toxic.

As for Ethanol, I agree: we should not turn Food into fuel!
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Froggy
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 02:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Its banned almost everywhere, ethanol is used instead.

Don't get me started on that food into fuel crap, its not food. Last time I checked you weren't eating clumps of algae or sub par corn.
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Id073897
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 04:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Its banned almost everywhere, ethanol is used instead.

Unfortunately, this is not true. In Europe the minimum grade of quality is not achievable by using ethanol as an octane booster, as the concentration of ethanol is limited to 5% and Euro-Super (RON 95) as well as Euro-Super+ (RON 98) can't deliver the required knock-resistance with ethanol only. MTBE concentration varies between 3.5% (RON 91, market share 65%) and 10.5% (RON 98, market share 4%).

The main purpose of MTBE in this case is not, and this is the main difference to the clean air act as quoted above, the use as an oxygenate.

Regarding oxygenated fuel: to reach the required amount of oxygen (RFC 2.0%/OxyFuel 2.7%) app. 11%/15% of MTBE has to be added, compared to 5.5%/7.5% of ethanol, so this is also a matter of costs.

The ability of ethanol to solubilize in fuel is quite limited. To add 5% ethanol to fuel, solubilizer, emulgators and stabilizer (hygroskopic!) have to be added, whose ecological risk potential is ranked high to very high and has not been fully estimated yet. This fact is often kept secret by ethanol advocates.

Coming back to clean air: high MTBE concentrations (10-15%) in fuel reduce HC in exhaust gas by 12-27%, CO by 21-28%. NOx concentration in exhaust gas is reduced by 7-16% and the percentage of cancerogene benzene drops by 34-47%.

So, as often, there's not a simple yes or no.
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Froggy
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 11:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thanks, I should of said in the US.
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