| Author | Message | ||
     Xoptimizedrsx |
still wont work. like they all said. you have a 14.7 afr. the tuner sees the fuel then add to is say 5% now its at a afr of 14.1 the ecm reads that adn reduces the map value making the tuner at +5% and the map equaling out to a 14.7 afr finale. no way around that. the computer compensates for the map values its seeing with the o2. so the ecm always wants 14.7. and it gets it by how much fuel is there. if a fuel value of 155 at 50 deg tps and 3000 rpm ='s 14.7 afr and you add to that. the ecm will see the value over a data collection time and rescale the whole ecm map. so you added %5 it did drop the afr for a while till it relearnd the % you added will stay fixed its a fixed value in the piggy back. the ecm will have reduiced the map. guess what exactly 5%. so now the whole map is 5% less fuel. to scale than the 155 if the afv is at 100. since you added 5% on a good afr already you droped it so now the ecm is correcting it by lowering the afv% by 5. now its affecting the entire map. so if it was actually lean in one spot guess what you now made it 5% worse. now the 155 scale - the 5% for the new afv will be bumped up %5 by the piggy back and you get the finale for that area rpm 14.7 again. fuel is not stacked but added together. once its added then the o2 is reading it after the burn. so its doing a constant cancellation or addition. 99% of the time making it worse with a piggy back. you can do it on the dyno to show better but with miles on it it will be like the rest. a e-bay item. junk. useless and wasted money. please dont let the shop fool you. we have all explained it every direction we could. if you feel you must buy it. please do. but before you do go do some riding time and make so road times to re ride later after a days riding. you will be slower with it less power and less tq. these bike have open and closed loop it learns in both dont fool yourself. ask (turk) :-) or ask any pro tuner. we have seen it fail time and time again. blatantly a rip off. note: before ecmspy back in the day i owned a power commander because they sold them for buell's they stopped making them because they didnt work correctly like they planned and couldn't get around it.. and you guys are wanting to put then on a faster and smarter ecm. geesh mike | ||
| Moosestang |
These piggy back tuners are not constantly adjusting the injector pulse width, the pots don't move after you set them, but the ecm is, so the ecm has the final say. The ecm is not at some fuel limit when you add a pipe and open airbox, not even close. The problem with letting the ecm adjust via AFV is that it will adjust the whole map and not just where you really need more or less fuel. The AFV will be constantly going up and down depending on how you ride. Data logging and using megalog viewer/ve analyzer will allow you to adjust the maps where they need to be and hopefully keep the AFV closer to 100 by doing so. | ||
| Boney95 |
So once the ecm's info is sent through the tuner, the ecm receives info from the tuner regarding what the tuner is adjusting the afr to? Hey Mike if I could give you a call, or you call me, so you can explain this all better to me through verbal communication. This messaging back and forth does not help. Would greatly appreciate it. (Message edited by boney95 on January 28, 2009) | ||
| Moosestang |
My understanding is that the tuner does not see the AFR at all. It merely adds or subtracts fuel as you set it to (on the pots). So, as I said above, if you add 2 to the original 10 (assuming that 12 give you an AFR of 13.5 or whatever), the ECM will drop back it's output to 8 in order to achieve 14.7. The tuner ONLY knows that it is supposed to add 2, not that it's supposed to aim for a particular AFR. So it's still "working" in the sense that it is still adding 2, only problem is that now it's adding it to 8, not 10, and your AFR is still 14.7. That's my take on it all anyway! Boney, this above is as simple as it gets. These piggy back tuners are not that sophisticated. You set it to add 2 units of fuel and that's all it can do, it can't see that the ecm has reduced it's fuel by 2. This is starting to look like an Abbott and Costello routine. | ||
| Boney95 |
Yeah I'm done with it. Thanks all for dealing with me. | ||
| 09ltrain |
I am no tuning specialist but from reading the posts what Moosestang & Mike are saying is that the ECM takes the data from the sensors and adjusts the entire fuel table / map to achieve a specific AFR. It continuously learns and adjusts to achieve that target ratio. The piggy back systems, once they are tuned / set, add a fixed amount of fuel and do not adjust at all. They do not know the final AFR and do not make adjustments. They have no way of knowing that the ECM has adjusted to the new fuel that the piggy back system added. They add exactly what you tell them and do not adjust, once they are set they do not readjust or change. Then you are back at square one, ECM controlled AFR. | ||
| Hogs |
As MIke had asaid up above... if a fuel value of 155 at 50 deg tps and 3000 rpm ='s 14.7 afr and you add to that. the ecm will see the value over a data collection time and rescale the whole ecm map. so you added %5 it did drop the afr for a while till it relearnd the % you added will stay fixed its a fixed value in the piggy back. the ecm will have reduiced the map. guess what exactly 5%. so now the whole map is 5% less fuel. to scale than the 155 if the afv is at 100. since you added 5% on a good afr already you droped it so now the ecm is correcting it by lowering the afv% by 5. now its affecting the entire map. so if it was actually lean in one spot guess what you now made it 5% worse. now the 155 scale - the 5% for the new afv will be bumped up %5 by the piggy back and you get the finale for that area rpm 14.7 again. So I think this is SCARY if it nows makes more changes especially Leaner than what it really is as Mike said right? | ||
| Madsx |
So what about the Powerizer? Doesnt it auto adjust? But by piggy backing is it in the same boat? | ||
| 09xb14r |
so what are the options for 08+ bikes? i know the ecm is different then the pre 07's, and downloading maps wont help. I really want to get a drummer for my bike.... just don't want it to run bad (lean) '  | ||
| Boney95 |
09xb14, there's not much we can do as of now. There are spreed sheets that you can purchase,which deals with ecmspy. You could also purchase an LC-1 and go that route. As for piggy backs, there's nothing out there. Xopti (this guy knows his sh!t) did tell me that the company that makes his LC-1's are in the process of putting together a tuner that connects right after the O2 sensor. So the tuner reads off of the sensor directly; the only way a piggy back will truly work with our Buells. As for wanting to put on a Drummer, go ahead, you'll have no problems. KD dyno'd his drummers with a stock ecm and reports that no tune is needed. I've been running a Drummer with a K&N for 3,700 miles now with no problems. Runs like a champ. The stock ecm can compensate for these up grades. | ||
| Buelltuner |
HOGS, sorry for the late response to the elevation question. I think that we can agree that these Buells run pretty decent as long as the AFV is plus or minus 10%. So as long as my trip up and down in elevation doesn't go and cause too much more deviation than that I doubt I would even know a whole lot has changed. Plus my map doesn't include crazy values like 13.0 in cruising range, that is rich already and if you took that up the mountain then it would probably foul plugs. My cruise range is more like 14.2 allowing for fuel deviation, these bikes will run pretty good from 13.6-14.6 and still not kill my fuel mileage. You should try it sometime and see how it works for you. | ||
| Hogs |
Thanks Buellturner... That makes sense,Just curious... Well since I got Loads off snow to deal with, will be a couple or more months before I get out... Just trying to Fill My Hard Drive in Me head with Data for later days.  | ||
| Buelltuner |
snow sucks, we got some, but 2 days later it was gone.  | ||
| Xxxh00liganxxx |
if i tuned the bike with no o2 sensor input! ( unplugged =) ) and then i put a resistor inline to make it always tell the ecm .45 volts ( perfect not rich or lean PERFECT) then please explain to me how the ecm will change anything! so far we have had ok luck with this twin tuner....never used one before so im not gonna tell ya its great or whatever it has plenty of down falls sure ecm spy is better but seems to be working for now! just curious if any of yal had used a super tuner for harley models and what yal think about those? | ||
| Moosestang |
You could just use ecmspy to disable the o2 sensor, no need for a resistor. Set the 02 minimum rpm activation to 8,000 rpms, problem solved. (Message edited by moosestang on January 30, 2009) | ||
| Firemanjim |
You guys are a bit off on some of your info. The Power Commander worked OK as long as you did not add fuel in the Learned Fuel areas. That was what skewed the entire map. It is not just a matter of adjusting "pots" ,PC has TP scale and rpm scale,you add or subtract fuel in the areas you want. It is certainly easier with ECM Spy but before we had this a PC was OK. And we can certainly make your bike with a Drummer and K&N run better than it would without re-mapping. You would be surprised.Al probably already has a map done for it. | ||
| Boney95 |
If you're using ecmspy to disable your O2 sensor, you might as well use it to tune the bike also, then F the tuner. | ||
| Buelltuner |
hooligan, I use the SERT all the time and is pretty good. I prefer it over other tuners, especially anything with buttons or pots! we should all be glad that a select few have come up with tuning software for these bikes despite the fact that they are a very small part of the market as a whole. Dynojet quit making PC's for Buells because the amount of tech support calls vs products sold for the Buells was too high. I believe we would not even be this far along if we Buellers were not so dedicated to the brand. | ||
| Steve_mackay |
so far we have had ok luck with this twin tuner Hals, who is one of the most respected Buell race shops out there, has had GREAT luck with the twin tuner. | ||
| Moosestang |
You guys are a bit off on some of your info. The Power Commander worked OK as long as you did not add fuel in the Learned Fuel areas. That was what skewed the entire map. It is not just a matter of adjusting "pots" ,PC has TP scale and rpm scale,you add or subtract fuel in the areas you want. It is certainly easier with ECM Spy but before we had this a PC was OK. And we can certainly make your bike with a Drummer and K&N run better than it would without re-mapping. You would be surprised.Al probably already has a map done for it. With open loop learn enabled, the whole map is a learned area. It just doesn't change the AFV as quickly as it would if you added fuel in the closed loop learn area. | ||
| Id073897 |
With open loop learn enabled, the whole map is a learned area No, it's not. OL learn serves a special purpose. | ||
| Moosestang |
No, it's not. OL learn serves a special purpose. It doesn't affect the AFV? Does it adjust the open loop correction? | ||
| Boney95 |
"luck " is the key word here. | ||
| Id073897 |
It doesn't affect the AFV? Does it adjust the open loop correction? OL learn affects AFV, but only in one direction (up) and only in OL reagions above CL, so OL learn does not make the whole map a learned area. | ||
| Moosestang |
OL learn affects AFV, but only in one direction (up) and only in OL reagions above CL, so OL learn does not make the whole map a learned area. thank you! | ||
| Bombardier |
Closed Loop is not just restricted by RPM but also by throttle application Yes? | ||
| Pashlipops |
1. The rear cylinder O2 is used for closed loop. The ECM has no clue what the O2 is in the front cylinder, therefore these piggyback systems can adjust the front in Closed Loop with no issues. This makes for a smoother engine at part throttle. You can do this yourself by adding 10% of fuel to the front cylinder in the closed loop area. 2. In Open Loop, the Open Loop Enrichment (you guys call it Open Loop Learn) is there to protect against running lean. A NB O2 sensor is a "switch" and is not designed for measurement. The OL enrichment adds fuel if the engine is running leaner than stoich (i.e. low *but not no* voltage) for more than 3 seconds. I have not seen any evidence to suggest that AFV is reset by Open Loop Enrichment (this doesn't mean to say that it isn't). | ||
| Spacewolf |
Pash, I have the twin tec, and it went on the dyno. It was adjusted, and the ECM kept adjusting it back, regardless of revs. It can be used to adjust the idle tho! However, it does appear if you disable, or remove, the O2 sensor, the tuner can be used. I'll give this route a look and see if those of us who have bought a tuner can salvage the cost. Also, I am not confident in re mapping my ECM...so I don't have much choice! | ||
| Id073897 |
is there to protect against running lean That's exactly the task of OL learn :-) OL enrichment is static and active in all OL regions, except WOT (where it's replaced by WOT enrichment). OL learn is dynamic and is active in OL and WOT regions above the CL region and gets triggered, as soon as the ECM discovers a permanent lean condition for longer than a specified time (3 seconds IIRC). AFV is then increased by the AFV increase factor. AFV will never get decreased through OL learn. |
