| Author | Message | ||
     Boney95 |
It's a piggy back. | ||
| Cruzin2 |
Ok thanks, not to belabor the point  but there are many auto piggy back systems that are supposed to increase horsepower. Is this also not true since those are also closed loop systems? | ||
| Artic_12_r |
I sure hate to hear all this. Sorry Boney, but Im happy with mine. | ||
| Boney95 |
Artic, Im going to see what kind of BS the dealer tells me, then report back. | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
its true the auto ones do it too. not all of them. some intercept signals and convert them. some are a waist of money. if you like i can go to ebay and pull a bazillion up chip 25 hp increase. heck we can geta +100 hp chip. on the box. make a good story and get some premo marketers to sell it. some one will buy them. but they wont work. if you are ok in the cruise and lean up top you can correct it out or rich it will give a overall correction. but it wont add power. do it to much it will take power out. just manually retune it. save the headache. there are a lot of guys now that will help you get going retuning. heck the newest versions all talk with out special skills. not like it was done two years ago. man those days was a pain but i did it back then. it was rocket science then it seemed like. now its click click copy paste. done. pretty simple to re tune a street bike a race is more evolved. but its not street legal anyway. morale is piggy backs and buell's they dont work well at all especially with the NB o2 setup. | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
take a recorder. i want to hear it. lol i went to a shop monday to see what they said. 45 mins later. i was done. same thing i bet you hear. then i told him who I was. one guy said @#$% that is you. the other said who is he. then guy#2 explained things to guy#1. then they asked if it would really work. or is the sales pamphlet totally wrong. same thing wont work and here is why speech i told them. then they looked at the laptop i had and showed then why. there tech said guess it wont work at all then and wanted to know where i got my data. told him i made the data. it has taken three years to build it up. then he wanted to know how long it took me to learn the race tuner and the ecm programs i have. told him time many many hrs. dyno and road time. trust not only me others who have tried. there is no magic pill or super black box. if you want power you need deep pockets or better learn how to build parts yourself. no way around it. | ||
| Artic_12_r |
For me, I knew I would not get the power from the Twintec. I did it just to make sure the bike would run correctly with the pipe and filter. | ||
| Boney95 |
The main reason for me getting a Twin Tec was also to richen up the map with the pipe, filter, and open air box. Though extra power would have been nice. But what Mike states is that the ECM will relearn/void out the tuner. Thus your bike will still run lean. As for ecmspy, Im still under warranty for another year. I know you can save the stock ecms map, but Id like to play it safe. | ||
| Boney95 |
And by the way, I very much appreciate all of your input Mike! | ||
| Artic_12_r |
I understand that it will adjust itself. What I dont understand is if it does relearn or adjust, there is no need for ECM spy either. | ||
| Buelltuner |
a note on piggy back systems... Power Commander ,arguably the largest tuner manufacture, does not make one for a Buell. HMMMM? With tuning systems like Direct-Link and ECMspy why even bother with others? Warranty not so much a concern if the bike runs right? As with any tool, a tuning system is only as good as the person using it. | ||
| Boney95 |
"Power Commander,...does not make one for a Buell. HMMMM?" You can't tell me Buells have the only relearning ECM out there. Harleys don't have re-learning ecms? | ||
| Boney95 |
I’m still not fully grasping this.  Isn’t one purpose of a tuner (Twin Tuner) is to compensate the fuel or lack of fuel that the stock ECM can’t adjust to? Example, the stock ECM can adjust the fuel ratio, but only to a certain extent, i.e. open air box, high flow filter, and a slip on pipe, the ECM can not adjust/add enough fuel to compensate for the lean condition that will occur. This is where the tuner comes in, to adjust the fuel beyond the perimeters that the stock ECM can’t. Also I posted this earlier but nobody chimed in to answer: It was my understanding that the tuner is hooked up in line after the ECM, thus whatever the amount of fuel the ECM prescribes the tuner subtracts or adds according to what you set it at. Key Question So how can the ECM throw off the tuner when the tuner is connected in-between the injectors and the ECM? The ECM and tuner never communicate with one another, right? These are just my thoughts and my understanding; I may be way off on my thinking. I really don't know sh!t about these bikes. Just trying to understand why this tuner will not work with this ECM. Mike, you're probably getting tired of replying to this thread/my questions. Sorry about that man, I’m just not getting it? Thanks for your time! Boney | ||
| Moosestang |
I understand that it will adjust itself. What I dont understand is if it does relearn or adjust, there is no need for ECM spy either. Ecmspy allows you to add or remove fuel in each individual fuel cell on the maps, not to mention adjust each timing cell. All the piggy backs add or subtract fuel from a targeted area of the fuel maps, not each cell. There are many things ecmspy will allow you to do that a piggy back can only dream of, like disable open loop learn, which will eventually remove all the fuel added by the piggy back by changing the AFV. | ||
| Moosestang |
The ecm is looking at the O2 sensor signal. If it sees to much fuel, added by the piggy back system, then it will just lower the AFV to compensate. The ecm can compensate for just about anything you can throw at it, but it's going to overcompensate by applying that compensation to the entire fuel map. that's not the ideal method, but it's all the ecm has. | ||
| Spacewolf |
Going by that analogy then, why is it not compensating for what we are already doing (ie pipes, airbox, etc?) | ||
| Boney95 |
The ecm is looking at the O2 sensor signal. If it sees to much fuel, added by the piggy back system, then it will just lower the AFV to compensate.\black This doesn't make sense. You wouldn't be adding too much fuel with the tuner. You would only be adding enough fuel (the amount that the ecm can't reach) to reach a non-lean mix (14.0, 14.4, or what ever). The ecm should be thanking the tuner for lending a hand. Scenario: The bike is running lean due to mods. The ecm is outputting its max fuel that it can. For this scenario I'll say 10 (10 being used as a fictional measurement of fuel) is the max amount of fuel the ecm can output. Now here comes the tuner. In order to achieve a non lean condition, two more points are needed. The tuner then adds the two more points making the total fuel measurement 12. Now when the O2 sensor reads, its not reading how much fuel was dumped into the engine, only the afr. Since the O2 sensor is reading a safe/correct afr, all is good. The O2 sensor should not relay to the ECM that less fuel is needed, because it's right on the money. You do this all on a dyno, throughout the entire rmp range etc... Hope this makes sense (Message edited by boney95 on January 28, 2009) | ||
| Niceguyeddy |
After having ridden mine for 200 or so it seemed obvious the ecm and tuner were not getting along. Long story short, the ecm won...seemed to over-ride and or fight all info in the tuner. Anyone want to buy a twin-tec and a cable? Marcus | ||
| Artic_12_r |
What will you try next. | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
the ecm is set to always follow a 14.7 afr. no matter what. if you tune it to 14.4 the ecm will read that while riding and update the entire map reducing fuel a % to make it 14.7 again. putting you right back where you started. in order to run it at a lower afr to be more smooth more power you have to tell the ecm to accept the data and where to place the target afr you want. on a narrowband o2 you are linited to how far you can go. add the mid point a couple point. from .49(old) to .52 new mid point its only a fraction but helps. the best thing to get the correction right is change the o2 to a wideband unit from innovate a lc1. and use ther simulated output line 1 connected to the bike for Nb data. then tune that to offset the afr. it will then tell the bike ecm its at a 14.7 but really be running at what ever you choose. then let get into fuel type. the more ethanol you have the more compression you need and more fuel as the afr drops requiring more fuel. a whole new ball game there. if you drag race you may already know. E85 or greater is known a poor mans nitro.i whole new subject there. just tun it out with any single cell tuner system. then set the mid point o2/afr/ego data to where you want it. but only after you use a wide band feed. how much is the twin tecs anyway? i dont want one. just want to see how bad they skin you for with tuning that wont work. mike | ||
| Hogs |
Nice Info there Mike... Wish u were here in my Backyard, been wanting to turn my 04 xb12 into a 88 for years but Damn if I can figure out all this Data stuff I have a cable and LM1 but just never got into it.. still You make it sound not that bad LoL I think all them Mickey Mouse units all run around the 300.00 to 500.00 mark (add ons...) and like ya said waste of hard earned $$$ | ||
| Hogs |
Boney95... When you say " The O2 sensor should not relay to the ECM that less fuel is needed, because it's right on the money. You do this all on a dyno, throughout the entire rmp range etc... " I think what the ecm wants to see is the 14.7 which You don`t want right.. You make the changes where you wanted as you say its right on say 13 13.5 or whatever But the ecm wants to see 14.7 so don`t matter how you do it Right on to me wd. be same 13 or 13.5 somewhere around that but the Ecm set for Emissions EPA etc is set to be at 14.7 Fighting a losing battle I think with any piggy backs, sums it up??? I may be wrong in my thinking but something like that I think... perhaps its the same as Mike has been saying.. end result back to the damn 14.4 or 14.7 there abouts... For EPA Standards set by the Factories Hmmmm?? | ||
| Buelltuner |
Hey Boney, It's not that the ECM cannot add enough fuel (because it can) it's the fact that if the closed loop area is not at 14.7 the ECM will adjust until it is. As Hogs stated and pretty much everyone else just all in different ways. I tuned my bike at all the fuel ratios I wanted and have been running without the O2 sensor and it's perfect. | ||
| Hogs |
Buellturner, What happens Say, where I am at is Sea Level and I tune as you say without the 02 sensor..and the bike works 100 percent, But then me and My Buddies all go up in the mountains higher much higher than Sea level...Then how does Say your bike work then?? | ||
| Boney95 |
I understand what you guy are saying about the ecm always trying to achieve an afr of 14.7. But does this really doesn't matter? Ok the ecm always wants to be at 14.7. The turner intercepts the ecm's output to achieve the 14.7, and add either adds percentages or subtracts, according to what you set the tuner to do. Some no matter where you're at the ecm is doing one thing (14.7), while the tuner adjusts the ecm's output to achieve the afr you want (though not an exact afr, don't think that's possible with this tuner). The tuner has the final say. It's connected between the injectors and ecm. The ecm can relearn all it wants, but the tuner has the final word. Please correct me if I'm wrong. | ||
| Andymnelson |
Your tuner is not adjusting to the O2 sensor, it is merely adding or subtracting fuel from what the ECM commands. So in your example above- ECm says 10 units of fuel gives me a 14.7 AFR, you add 2 units to achieve a 13.5 AFR. ECM sees 13.5 AFR and reduces fuel output to 8- tuner still adds 2, so you're getting 10, and a 14.7 AFR...tuner accomplishes nothing. | ||
| Boney95 |
I know the tuner is not adjusting to the O2 sensor. The ecm adjusts off of the O2 sensor. If the ecm sees 13.5 afr, you are right that it will adjust to get 14.7. But then the tuner is behind the ecm adjusting the 14.7 to what you want. Then the process repeats. The O2 sensor reads the 13.5 afr (that was made possible by the tuner, since it has the final say), then sends a signal to the ecm to lower the fuel percentage. The ecm adjusts to get the 14.7, then the tuner receives the 14.7 output from the ecm and changes that to get the 13.5. | ||
| Andymnelson |
My understanding is that the tuner does not see the AFR at all. It merely adds or subtracts fuel as you set it to (on the pots). So, as I said above, if you add 2 to the original 10 (assuming that 12 give you an AFR of 13.5 or whatever), the ECM will drop back it's output to 8 in order to achieve 14.7. The tuner ONLY knows that it is supposed to add 2, not that it's supposed to aim for a particular AFR. So it's still "working" in the sense that it is still adding 2, only problem is that now it's adding it to 8, not 10, and your AFR is still 14.7. That's my take on it all anyway! | ||
| Boney95 |
The bottom line is that the tuner has the final say. It's the last thing that has anything to say about the amount of fuel being supplied. It's a circle: -Exhaust gases to O2 sensor -O2 sensor communicates to the ecm -Ecm sends it's info through the tuner -Tuner adjusts the ecm's info -Tuner's info is sent to the injectors -Combustion occurs -Exhaust gases to O2 sensor | ||
| Boney95 |
It does only subtract or add fuel. That's why you put it on a dyno, to adjust the pots so you're close to your desired afr. If the ecm wants to chang that back to 14.7, so be it. The tuner will adjust back to where you want the afr. "Since it has the final say". |
