| Author |
Message |
    
Xbcrazy
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 01:48 pm: | 
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Sorry I don't have the time or the desire to diagram the said forces involved. I am not an engineer so explaining why something happens a certain way is not my forte. As a rider, I just need to know that it does happen and then how to correct the situation.
I've offered my experience here. Whether one agrees or disagrees with me is fine.
If you feel that you need a technical explanation, I would direct you to Ed Kwaterski, former owner of Trackside Engineering, and the current Showa suspension engineer that designs the front ends for Buell. He explained it to me in simple terms, but could probably hook you up with the technical description you want.
Pete |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 07:07 pm: |
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Yes I was kidding  . |
The_italian_job
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 08:34 pm: |
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thank God! |
Bads1
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 09:50 pm: |
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Edoardo,
What your plan then. Are you going to chrome the force pipe,keep it ceramic coated??? |
Ourdee
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 11:22 pm: |
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Valentino Rossi? Man can ride! He makes Gp cornering/drifting into poetry. Look him up on youtube. Sorry, borderline threadjack. er uh Yea, that force looks good on the XB. See, repentance. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 01:52 am: |
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Different length headers - wider power band.
Pulling to right side - not as explained by Italian Job as wheel on single axle and tensioned thus both sides affected equally.
Standing up in corners - yes as you are trying to stop a gyroscopic force - happens on all bikes to varying degrees but more on this bike due to increased weight away from axle centre.
Benefit of this outer disc also makes bike more stable at speed with steep head angle due to the increased weight away from the axle centre.
My 2 cents. |
The_italian_job
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 06:10 am: |
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I still don't know Dana, I must have the pipe in my hands and see how does it look. but I know, from my direct experience, that the Jet Hot ceramic is a pain in the ass to strip down!
I'll see tomorrow, the pipe is gonna be delivered to me... |
Whitetrashxb
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 01:52 pm: |
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Ed-
the silver finish on the Force is very very nice in my opinion. My stock header is ceramic coated blue, but the finish isn't quite as nice....
I truly hope you are able to tune the Force to make decent power. With the new tuning abilities out today (ecmspy, directlink, etc)and the multiple spring-held joints on the new generation pipe, maybe some of the old skepticism can be put to rest. Maybe not, but i'm curious to see.
good luck |
The_italian_job
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 05:19 pm: |
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thanks James,
I've just got the delivery today, the pipe looks great!
I'll definitely keep it like this, so I don't have to get crazy with re-polishing!
spoke with my mechanics today, wanted to try the pipe on the bike already tomorrow, but they're already working on it and they prefer to leave the installation of the pipe at the very end. so, since we have a dead line (Daytona's Rat's Hole, March 7th), finish this bike is too important for me to risk, so I won't bug them.
If there will be necessity of re-tune the ECM, that'll be after the show... |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 05:34 pm: |
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As long as you settle the AFV before the show you should be able to get it running so people can hear it at the show. Try to get it done too as the sound of that pipe will open peoples eyes in a hurry . It's absolutely beautiful. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 05:41 pm: |
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Ratshole is indoor's..... or it was. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 05:45 pm: |
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"Standing up in corners - yes as you are trying to stop a gyroscopic force - happens on all bikes to varying degrees but more on this bike due to increased weight away from axle centre. "
I don't agree with that... I think it was due to having a flat rear profile tire compared to the front. As you roll into the turn the rear is trying to run a different curve than the front. As the angle increases this has an interaction with the front (ours having less rake than others) and it gets a bit out of whack. The front wants to turn sharper into the turn than it needs to in order to maintain equilibrium. This trys to stand the bike up. Apply trail braking and the rake further decreases, exacerbating the problem.
That's what you're feeling. It's solved by tires with the proper curve relative to each other and appropriate for our geometry.
Also... If you do mount a rear with a too flat profile relative to the front then you need to hang off further. That solves the problem too. While leaned way over like that and hanging way off with a "too flat" rear profile just give a bit of a gentle tug down on the bike with your outside leg and the bike will really dig into the turn at the apex. It can be used to your advantage .
Just for the record... The math has apparently been done on gyroscopic force and as I recall the amount on the front wheel of the XB is "very close" to the same as a dual disc setup. From my experience I agree. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 05:51 pm: |
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I'd let it idle at least... The Force pipe really does sound excellent... |
The_italian_job
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 12:25 am: |
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the Rat's Hole is outdoor...
and I'm sure the bike won't have problems to start and run, it might not run properly, but I'm not gonna drive from South Beach to Daytona, so there won't be problems!
I will be able to start the bike and let the pipe open people's ears!!!!!!! |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 07:39 am: |
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M1 - The standing up that was referred to was whilst braking.
The rotor and caliper being closer to the rim than the norm provides more 'leverage' than a standard hub mounted setup. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 04:38 pm: |
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I know...
I'm just saying that it doesn't happen for the reasons people think it does is all. I mean we have to agree that any "standing up" has to occur while leaned over to some degree or it wouldn't need to "stand up".
There are a few "drawbacks" with having a 21 degree rake. The benefits outweigh those drawbacks in my opinion. I know it can feel "quirky" to someone who's used to a bike with more conventional geometry but once you wrap your head around the Buell and how it handles you can take advantage of the benefits and mitigate any drawbacks.
When it comes to the Buell standing up under braking... I can assure you that if you hang off properly the problem disappears. It's caused by the relationship between the two tire profiles and the reaction of the steering head to the forces created by mismatched tire profiles.
I've used the brakes on a Buell... Even on a racetrack. I've felt the same forces you do and understand that they exist. I'm just saying they aren't caused by what people think they're caused by. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 06:21 pm: |
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I remember three years ago it was indoors. I went to the site before you posted back and seen that it was outdoors. Pray for the good weather... hey ?? |
The_italian_job
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 09:46 pm: |
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I'm sure they'll have an indoor location too in case the weather doesn't look nice. That show is too important to be ruined from the rain... |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 04:04 am: |
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M1 - Is it the width of the tyre or the weight of the tyre/wheel assembly?
I feel it is the weight that makes for a fat rear tyre a bugger to lay down.
The heavier the gyroscope(wheel) the more effort required to change its rotational axis. |
Duff24
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 04:55 pm: |
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see next post
(Message edited by duff24 on February 01, 2009) |
Duff24
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 05:03 pm: |
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Finally got a couple pics of my force pipe(s) today:
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Whitetrashxb
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 10:25 pm: |
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duff that black is just sick
How come the Jardine on the nine?
nice bikes
james |
Duff24
| | Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 12:23 pm: |
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Thanks. I left the jardine on because I bought the force headers by themselves without the bottom half. |
Cruisin
| | Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 12:46 pm: |
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I had a force pipe on my S2 and thought it was pretty cool.
I bought a black force pipe for my xb12r and had it on for about three days. Holy crap, that thing was the loudest pipe ever. The cone just made it resonate so nicely. I admit, I liked the sound, but that was just too much to ride on my daily commuter.
Show bike - put the force on it - it WILL get attention!
I still have the black headers sitting in my garage. I sold the can to someone a while ago, but don't think I could justify throwing the headers away. |
