| Author | Message | ||
     Swordsman |
Check this: http://www.dynotunenitrous.com/store/scripts/prodV iew.asp?idproduct=162 For some reason I was thinking wideband O2 sensors were MUCH more expensive than this. Am I looking at the right piece, or is there something else I would need to incorporate this onto my bike? ~SM | ||
| Mmcn49 |
Swordsman-A WB sensor has to be installed with a controller. An LC-1, (sensor and controller) from Inov. is $199. Like you I’m sick of all the Buell’s stumbling, and am in the middle of installing two on my TT. I’ve had telephone conversations with two owners who have installed them. Both have 12R’s, one has a Drummer the other is stock. The owner of the Drummer bike put an o2 bung in his front pipe, set the AFR to 13.6:1 and data logged both cylinders. His bike runs fantastic. The other bike owner chose not to put an o2 bung in the front cylinder. He set the AFR to 14.0:1. Data logged the rear cylinder and applied a 2% offset on the rear cylinder readings for the front cylinder. He stated that his bike runs 10,000 times better than stock. | ||
| Swordsman |
Very cool. I STAY a bit confused on the subject (obviously, if you've read any of my other posts). After all the reading I've done on the subject, I'm still not clear on how the ECM handles the info from a wideband as compared to the narrowband. Since the narrowband is bretty much a yes-or-no statement for when the AFR is correct, how does the ECM deal with a sensor that actually calculates how much the AFR is off? ~SM | ||
| Id073897 |
how the ECM handles the info from a wideband as compared to the narrowband Incorrectly, primarily. You have to switch to NB simulation, which OTOH will take you the possibility to log AFR precisely. Even in simulation mode AFV might run amok. | ||
| Skinstains |
I'm admittedly in unchartered waters here, but, Doesn't the elimination of the o2 sensor(s) make it a lot easier to get the bike running proper ? | ||
| Swordsman |
Id, is that simulation mode turned off/on via the wideband controller, or somewhere else? ~SM | ||
| Id073897 |
yes, the aforementioned LC-1 for example has two analog outputs, one in WB, the other one in NB mode. The problem is, that simulated NB output is appropriate for pure CL, but is a bit problematic for calibration. Calibration relys on O2 transitions, from beyond the lean/rich voltage (stored in EEPROM) in direction of target voltage. So what you have to do is to adopt either rich/lean voltages in the ECM to the NB mode of the WB-O2 or adjust the NB voltages signaled by WB-O2 to the ECM setup. The advantage is, that the exact AFRs which are represented by the rich/lean (NB-O2) voltages are unknown and a simultaneous monitoring of NB-O2 and WB-O2 is difficult. Unfortunately we lost all the related information at UKBEG, when the server got hacked and emptied. There might be a chance to find some NB-O2 voltages vs. AFR informations at the megasquirt forum. | ||
| Swordsman |
Ugh. I'm blaming it on the fact I'm an art guy... this stuff makes my head hurt!  I guess now I'm having a hard time understanding what the benefit of WB is over NB if it can only send NB data to the ECM. Maybe Id explained it above and I'm just too dense to get it. Mmcn49, keep me informed on how your install and testing goes! ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on January 05, 2009) | ||
| Moosestang |
The advantage is you can tune the bike more precisely using megalogviewer. There is no advantage as far as the ecm is concerned because it can't handle the wide band info. these two owners that tuned their bikes to 13.6 and 14.0, what did they do about the AFV? Turn off the 02? Lock the AFV? Or did they adjust the o2 voltage in ecmspy? I'm assuming no one leaves the wide band sensor installed, it's just to tune the bike then reinstall the stock 02. (Message edited by moosestang on January 05, 2009) (Message edited by moosestang on January 06, 2009) | ||
| Swordsman |
OOOOH, I see. While the ECM might not be able to make use of the wideband capabilities, ECMSpy CAN use it while data logging, and then MegalogViewer has better data to analyze. Got it. Thanks! ~SM | ||
| Moosestang |
That is the way i understand it. The LC1 controller might come with it's own software to log with. You could of course leave it installed and install a air/fuel ratio gauge, but that seems like overkill for a naturally aspirated engine. | ||
| Buford |
Used a set of F.A.S.T. wb sensors and MLV to log and create new fueling tables front and rear. Run the motor in open loop-very nice. | ||
| Mmcn49 |
In the LC-1 controller you can program the WB sensor response speed from instant to 1/12 sec. 1/6 sec. or 1/3 sec. The Buell ECM will handle 3 times per second. | ||
| Moosestang |
What AFR did you use for the wide open throttle area? I'm looking for max power. The air/fuel tables in MLV show 13.0:1, i'm assuming that's not optimal. | ||
| Mmcn49 |
A big snow storm delayed my parts delivery by more than a week. I’m just getting the bike reassembled and haven’t started data logging yet with the new LC-1 controllers. I’m beginning at 14.0:1 as I know the high & low voltage and AFV settings to enter into the programmer. If needed I believe I know how to get a richer AFR once I start playing with them, but will have to verify. You were wrong about not leaving the WB’s in after data logging. With the response speed set to 1/3 sec. there is no reason to take them out. I believe the max power AFR is between 12.6-13.6 but don’t know for sure. I’m only looking to stop all the stumbling and bumbling and think 14.0 or so will accomplish that. | ||
| Moosestang |
You were wrong about not leaving the WB’s in after data logging. With the response speed set to 1/3 sec. there is no reason to take them out. I'm not wrong, it's really not necessary to leave it installed unless you will be constantly tuning the bike. You also have to take it out to calibrate it every so often, which would be a pain on a buell. I'd only leave it installed if I were running an AFR gauge, that's not wrong, just my opinion. | ||
| Moosestang |
Also, I don't think it should stumble and bumble at any AFR if the maps are perfect, well any within reason of course. | ||
| Buplaux |
The benefit of leaving it in is that you can program the lc-1 controller to target a different afr. Instead of targeting 14.7:1 I programed it to 13.6:1 in cl. The ecm doesnt know any different. I have tried to change the switching voltages in ecmspy but that did very very little which I confirmed by logging with the wb o2. Also I noticed that in steady cruise with the lc-1 in mlv the afr still jumps between 14:1 & 13.3:1 but it is much much smoother/ uniform looking than with the stock nb setup. You may be right about the recalibration being a pain in the ass, but so far I have not had to do anything. Instead of removing the sensor I think I might pull the spark plug on that cylinder and make sure the exhaust valve is open then blow compressed air in through the pipe to recalibrate it. Might work, might not but I will try. It is for sure not easy to get the rear o2 in and out. BTW It doesn't matters what values you have in your map in the closed loop area. Which is where my bike also stumbled often in cruise. Once the o2 is active it controlls the fueling and will make adjustments to whatever value is in the map cell. What I noticed is that mine would jump between 16:1 & 14:1 in stock nb setup. I could definitely feel the lean spikes in the handle bars(felt like hitting small pot holes). | ||
| Swordsman |
Okay, one more question. Let's say I've installed a wideband O2, and I've set it to narrowband mode so it can communicate to the ECM. Now, how does ECMSpy pick up on and record the wideband data if the sensor is only sending narrowband information? ~SM | ||
| Id073897 |
It won't. | ||
| Swordsman |
............... huh. So, again, now I'm back to "I'm having a hard time understanding what the benefit of WB is over NB if it can only send NB data to the ECM". Is the ONLY purpose of a wideband O2 for these bikes the fact that you can change the target A/F ratio? ~SM | ||
| Hermit |
The best way I found to tune using wideband data is to use the data logging feature of your wideband controller. The throttle position and the rpm also need to be connected to the wideband controller. Then import the data into Megalog Viewer and create new maps. ECMSpy is used to load the new maps into the ECM. This description is greatly over simplified but is the basic process I am using. | ||
| Swordsman |
Ah, I was unaware the controller had its own logging capabilities? How did you connect the other stuff to the controller (or is that something that is explained in the supplied directions?). | ||
| Id073897 |
The best way I found to tune using wideband data is to use the data logging feature of your ECM. If you want to know how the map looks like (in AFRs) switching over to open loop is a must anyway. Then the ECM can be fed with any O2 voltage, including WB. | ||
| Moosestang |
The benefit of leaving it in is that you can program the lc-1 controller to target a different afr. Instead of targeting 14.7:1 I programed it to 13.6:1 in cl. The ecm doesnt know any different. That's a cool feature! I think i'll try disabling the O2, assuming I get a wideband to tune the bike. | ||
| Mmcn49 |
Moose-Send me an e-mail at MMcN49@gmail.com I'll send you an install sheet and other useful/interesting information. | ||
| Gofastscottb |
I follow more than one forum. This post might answer some of your questions on the LC-1 from Innovate. http://www.buelletinboard.com/forums/showthread.ph p?t=8188 Regards, Scott | ||
| Moosestang |
I can't wait to get a wideband. After only 3 times data logging and running it through MLV, the bike is noticeably smoother at slow speed/low rpm. | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
i also run dual wide bands feeding the ecm switched separately. this allows me to send the data to the ecm. you want to slow the wide band down to 1/3 speed also speed up the ecm if you can. if not just use it where it is. with dual you get spot on fuel. plus you can see both afr on the dash at all times. my poor ecm has been thrashed coding and watching the data in pc programs to learn what happens when certain things are moved as well as blends. the afr dual widebands dont lie. i use the dual lc1's now from innovate they are the best IMO.. currently the motor is apart getting new work and pushing the xb9 to 11 to 1 comp as well as a few other tricks. once it together the lc1 units will let me know real fast if its lean if it is all the work paid off and i'll feed in more fuel. any questions on them gofastscott has all the lc1 questions. lc1 god i do believe. mike | ||
| Wrecked |
Has anyone used an LC-1 programmed for a richer AFR with a stock ecm flash? I'd assume you'd find the engine would run better, but not as good as tuning. I'm sure the AFV would rise quite a bit. | ||
| Gofastscottb |
You might find that it is not as bad as you think. When I first installed my LC-1 I thought that my open loop section would have to be remapped a lot. I went from 14.7 to 14.0 in the closed loop section. It really did not need that much adjustment. On regular Harleys Nightrider.com goes a full AFR point plus, from 14.7 to 13.5 & does not have any problems. Scott  | ||
| Wrecked |
To be sure I understand, a non-tuned ecm with an LC-1 set for 13.5:1 AFR should run fairly well? In that case, anyone with a bone stock XB12S (myself) who wants to be rid of the low rpm stumbles and accel hesitation could go with a programmed LC-1 in the rear cylinder and see decent results. Sounds like I should buy the LC-1 and give it a shot before I start tuning. |
