| Author | Message | ||
     Mmcn49 |
Many of us have Buell’s with surging issues. Numerous threads have commented that Narrow Band o2 sensors operate around the “optimum” 14.7:1 gasoline stoichiometric AF ratio. When our bikes are operated in closed loop the NB sensor maintains that ratio. It’s true that gasoline stoich is 14.7, but ethanol stoich is 9 to 1. When you do the math, E-10 has a stoich of 14.1 to 1. With the NB sensor maintaining 14.7, on E-10 you go from a lean operating condition to a leaner, perhaps super lean condition. My TT surges, and always has. The only fuel sold where I live, since I purchased the Buell is E-10. I’m wondering if E-10 is a big part of the surging issue. Has anybody run their bike on both gasoline and E-10? If so was their any difference? | ||
| Randomchaos |
When I bought my Buell, it was still common for most stations to be using pure gas, instead of E-10. Now they almost all have E-10. I haven't noticed a change in the amount it surges, coughs, or sputters. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Since the F/A ratio is controlled by an oxygen sensor in the exhaust, it seems it would maintain an appropriate mixture no matter what fuel is used (within the limitations of the fuel injection system). Doesn't the O2 sensor just look for a certain minimum amount of oxygen in the exhaust gases? I'm thinking it doesn't "know" what the actual F/A ratio is. It adjusts the F/A ratio to provide an oxygen content in the exhaust which corresponds to a stochiometric fuel/air mixture. Make sense?  | ||
| Mmcn49 |
Interesting point. That may be the way it is supposed to work but: Gasoline molecules are made up of Hydrogen and Carbon atoms. The Ethanol molecule has an Oxygen atom that by weight is 34.8% of the molecule. Could the extra oxygen in the E-10 fuel mix affect the Buell’s un-heated NB o2 sensor’s operation? | ||
| Mnbueller |
If Ethanol is effecting the non-heated, narrow band o2 sensor. fix it with ECM spy. Just connect it up, and offset the 02 sensor a little richer, problem solved. | ||
| Birdy |
Can't say that'd be a problem as all I've ever run is high test gas. BUT the owners manual says that Buell is OK with 10% ethanol. And yes my bike spits and farts and burps from time to time on Shells finest. | ||
| Froggy |
My bike runs no different no matter what grade, ethanol content, or seasonal formulation. Only difference I know is that in the winter with E10 vs. summer E0 I gain a good 15mpg. New York is an E10 minimum state, but even if I had a chance I get E10 as its less damaging to the environment. | ||
| Buell_41 |
Mnbueller, I would think enrichening the mixture would only work until the bike enters closed loop learn mode at which point it will try to mix to 14.7:1. If you want to manually update the values and have them stick, I don't think you can allow the bike to learn and adapt... AKA disconnect the o2 sensor. If remember right, the race ECM does not use the o2 for this very reason. Froggy, E10 is no more "damaging" to the environment than normal gas. It takes more energy to make E10 and you get less internal energy out of it. This means that we have to buy it more often because its not as "potent" as normal gas. Its the same faulty thinking as electric cars being environmently friendly. You plug the car in each night and make some coal burning power plant work that much harder to pump electricity into your home. You haven't reduced emissions... just moved them. | ||
| Froggy |
Your fuel system will be cleaner running E10. E10 also attracts any water buildup, vs normal gas repels it. E10 also reduces tail pipe emissions, and in the event of a spill won't contaminate water supplies. That whole moving emissions thing is just crap, I got clean, safe, and efficient nuclear power. I got 70+ mpg once on my SS, and it was on E10. I gladly take it and the few mpg hit any day of the week. Anyway, from my understanding is that the race ecm still uses the o2 sensor. Don't quote me on that. | ||
| Buell_41 |
E10 has 6,000 BTUs less than gas. Or, said another way, it's ~3% less efficient than normal gas. I'll admit the difference is small... But over time, I mean, it adds up. | ||
| Chainsaw |
I’m wondering if E-10 is a big part of the surging issue. Has anybody run their bike on both gasoline and E-10? I live in Colorado, and 10% Ethanol has been used since I was old enough to drive. I don't recall ever having a surging issue on my bikes, so IMO Ethanol is not the culprit. I have used non-ethanol gas when riding thru other states with no noticeable effects, but running at sea level brings a noticeable power increase. You guys below 5,300 feet have it sooo good.  | ||
| Swordsman |
I've just conceded... Buells surge, and if the engineers that designed the bike can't fix it, I most certainly can't!  ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on December 18, 2008) | ||
| Rhun |
When it comes to environmentally friendly, who knows??? All the 'scientist' that wrote diet and exercise books have moved into the environmental field. There is so much miss information and 'facts' that are based on a myopic view or based upon a political belief, that every thing said is suspect. Although ethanol is different from methanol fuel who will argue that the big buck NHRA aren't fast and run on alcohol . Many drag cars are now being build to run on E85 only (as opposed to the dealer 'compromised' vehicles) that flat scream. Yes the BTU factor is less for alcohol but there are other factors that need to be looked at in the power game. Two ideas come to my mind. First environmentally friendly is a marketing tool and no one in the military has died defending a corn field. Just curious, if you burn pig poop to fire an ethanol plant (yes many do), what is the net environmental impact compared to letting the pig poop just decompose? | ||
| Bombardier |
Have posted before about this and yet to have any opinions sent my way - with the fuel filter on the other side of the pressure regulator is the bike ever really getting the correct fuel pressure for the fuel map? | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Just curious, if you burn pig poop to fire an ethanol plant (yes many do), what is the net environmental impact compared to letting the pig poop just decompose? Nothing, it's the same amount. What has changed is the time it took. With pig poop, the time change is not dramatically different than "natural" decomposition so it's not a problem. Dramatically shortening the time on other carbon sources (versus the natural decay time) of wood, coal and oil creates a landslide effect where it all crashes at once. Like Barbie said, Math is hard. It's all math and the numbers don't lie. How you want to interpret and politicize the numbers is your call. Me, I long for the days of heavy horses, and will ride my bike to consume the gas and hasten that day. Conspiracy theory guys: what's up with the gas prices being jacked so high that "food for fuel" and sand extraction becomes economically sound, only to have the gas prices collapse at the same time those alternatives were about to utilized. The farmers, corn/soy processors and tar sands have all been just about crushed before they could realize a profit which sets us all up for the next cycle. ADHD, back to topic: surge is a product of fuel/air mix flow not flame front. Fuel's flame and speed will show up in horse/torque measurements. | ||
| Sloppy |
Ethanol is a bio-fuel made from SOLAR energy and SOIL / CO2 energy (plants convert solar power and chemicals in soil and air into sugar!) and a portion of the exhaust goes BACK into the plant growing cycle. That cycle doesn't happen with fuel or coal... Note - there are some plants that can convert the waste exhaust emmissions of power plants into fuel! Ethanol can be run at higher compression ratios and so it CAN make your engine MORE EFFICIENT. While you use more mass of fuel than gasoline due to the combustion process, you will use that mass MORE EFFICIENTLY than with gasoline! The conversion process of creating Ethanol and the socio-economic changes is another loaded discussion... Also, the bio-fuel can be made LOCALLY and can also be made by ANYONE. If YOU wanted to, YOU can make in your own garage... which is something you CAN NOT do with crude oil (unless you live in Texas and have mining rights and a few million dollars...) Bio-Fuel is a push towards reducing Foreign Dependence, Increasing Competition and the potential for a more Environmentally Friendly process. And as Iam pointed out extremely well, it all falls under "it's the economy, stupid!". As long as gasoline is cheaper than bio-fuel, gasoline will likely continue to be the fuel of choice... Now, if they made ORGANIC bio-fuel, perhaps there are good enough marketers to sell to rich hippies to make it worthwhile. So, as pointed out, the benefits of Bio-Fuel is not really one of environmental concerns, but more importantly, of local community impact. Anywho, bucking and surging is likely not due to E-10. Try cleaning any crud buildup in your throttle body which will give erratic air flow at part throttle, make sure you don't have an intake leak which will throw your ECM waaaay off or try a bottle of injector cleaner with a water treatment in it. (Message edited by sloppy on December 22, 2008) | ||
| Ourdee |
Me, I long for the days of heavy horses, and will ride my bike to consume the gas and hasten that day. Isn't that supposed to happen when Turkey diverts the flow of the Euphrates river into it's reservoirs drying the river up so that China who fields a 200 million man army can cross it on horses. Making it possible for the blood to flow as deep as the horses bridle down that 200 or so furlong trench near Israel, but only after the nuke irradiates the blood so that it doesn't coagulate. And as an aside the nuclear detonation forces moist air into the stratosphere causing huge 75+ pound hail stones to fall. Anyway this all said to compare it with global warming, whale nuking, and chaining tree huggers to flaming trees. I'm with you in hastening the day. If my life is but a vapor, I say VAPORIZE!  Sometimes life is too heavy, to the point that an inviro' friendly 'tude doesn't produce enough good karma. RIDE!  OH, the topic, I've never had a surge from using ethanol.  | ||
| Keith_mahoney |
Sloppy, I believe the energy used to make bio fuel that people were referring to was not the solar energy used to grow the plants, but the energy used to process them. I wonder how hard it is to get a permit from the BATF to make your own "Fuel" I don't think all I made would end up in my gas tank. | ||
| Saratoga |
Since you can't buy fuel without the corn infusion around here anymore, I have nothing else to compare it to... unless I run some 110LL. | ||
| Sloppy |
FWIW, Congress passed a law making it LEGAL for you to make your own bio-fuel for personal use... of course there are limits, but the point is that if you use it to power your own vehicle it's within the law. And here's a twist - you can make your own bio-diesel to run a generator and sell that energy back to the electric company at the same rate that you are being charged... oh, how the opportunities open up with bio-fuels. |
